Man who beheaded fellow bus passenger wants to live on his own

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

So your contention is psychiatry is a rock solid science then?

And that for all the talk of listening to experts you think we should only listen to the group of experts whose opinions you prefer?

Ah no. You should listen to the group of experts who actually treated the patient and are qualified to opine on the case...in this case psychiatrists. Or maybe consult a bunch of chiropractors too. I dunno. But one thing I'm pretty sure about is no one was sitting around digging up repressed memories here.

[dirk diggler]

Wonder how much the system has spent on this guy? between housing, food, physiatrist costs etc. what a huge waste of money.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

Wonder how much the system has spent on this guy? between housing, food, physiatrist costs etc. what a huge waste of money.

ok weird? But how is it a waste of money? Look I'm not happy with the unconditional release. But don't you think if Li goes forth and sins no more that we're saving a ton of money?

If we kept him in the jail system and untreated or badly treated for 20 years, it would cost a ton of money to clothes and feed him and at the end he'd probably be back on the streets with the same mental problems or worse ones then he has now.

Instead if everything goes right and he sticks to taking his meds we have someone that might actually be a plus positive instead of a net negative.

Now I'm not saying this is a catch all solution for dealing with violent criminals. Its not, there are a lot of entirely sane incredibly violent people out there who should be in jail for as long as possible. But Li isn't one of them.

As long as he sticks to his meds. But that's up to him now.

[RichKlit]

How many jobs require you piss test or some other requirement before you can be gainfully employed, even though you have done nothing wrong to justify that test, and get randomly and routinely tested going forward? Rig workers, pro atheletes, members of govt etc. Is it to much to ask of this man to comply to random testing as often as the general public does to remain employed?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

How many jobs require you piss test or some other requirement before you can be gainfully employed, even though you have done nothing wrong to justify that test, and get randomly and routinely tested going forward? Rig workers, pro atheletes, members of govt etc.

Every single one of those occupations is a choice. Every single person there can stop the testing by simply walking away and finding another job. The parallel doesn't exist.

For what it's worth, Li has chosen to continue being monitored.

Originally Posted by RichKlit

Is it to much to ask of this man to comply to random testing as often as the general public does to remain employed?

I mean, that's what is happening. Most of the general public isn't randomly tested...

[RichKlit]

Originally Posted by MBates

I totally agree. The only caveat is to make sure it is informed and open minded questioning. Declaring the decision is wrong just because of how it makes you feel when you don't understand the disease and its treatment and risk factors is still allowed but not helpful. Advocating abandoning the rule of law because the incident was horrific is absolutely not responsible citizenship.

I would unquestionably be safer driving to work if I installed a NASCAR roll cage in my car and wore a fireproof suit and helmet. I am not an outrageous fool for driving with a t-shirt, shorts and a ball cap. And society hasn't given up on protecting public safety by not invoking NASCAR standards in the Traffic Safety Act. We measure and assume risk of death literally every single day. Traffic Safety experts are left to decide which measure we must have and which can be left out. We accept those expert assessments and risk our lives (an educated calculated risk) for the freedom and convenience cars give us.

I just don't see how allowing the experts in mental health to assess the risks in that field and decide what risks we can take and what risks are too much should be treated differently.

And the reality is they do it every day as well. People are in and out of psych assessment under provincial mental health legislation hundreds of times a month I am sure. Often within a 24 hour period and a half hour long interview an expert decides whether a person gets to be unconditionally free to live mentally ill beside you...you just don't know it.

It's all calculated risk with no guarantees. But for some reason when the incident is horrifying all non psychiatrists give themselves an instant PhD and take to the internets to tell everyone how the whole system is in ruins. It's not.

I wonder what the stats are on how many greyhound bus trips have been taken in Canada where no passenger was a victim of any assault whatsoever? Probably millions. If you think the only paranoid schizophrenic who has ever rode on a greyhound was Vince Li you are sadly mistaken.

Driving requires you pass multiple tests and maintain the rules and regulations of the road throughout the duration of your driving career , if you decide to not obey these rules your license will eventually be taken away. Some of the reasons you may lose your license could be choice, like speeding to often or to high a rate of speed or drunk driving etc. Some may be for physical reasons like blindness or old age no fault of your own but damn man you can't be on the road. It's a privilege not a right and it comes with rules and regulations before you have done anything to prove you shouldn't be driving. He has proven under the right circumstances he is a danger to society. I can choose to not drive I can't stop him from being my neighbor.

[RichKlit]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Every single one of those occupations is a choice. Every single person there can stop the testing by simply walking away and finding another job. The parallel doesn't exist.

For what it's worth, Li has chosen to continue being monitored.


I mean, that's what is happening. Most of the general public isn't randomly tested...

Exactly it's a choice to stop those jobs. Just like he has the choice to stop taking he's medicine and we have seen the potential results of that. My choice or the general public choice to quit isn't really similar.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

I can choose to not drive I can't stop him from being my neighbor.

Sure you can, if you feel that strongly about it. There is literally zero reason, if you view the risk of having Li as a neighbor as extremely high, that anything should stop you from moving.

You might have a "Li" as your neighbor right now and just not know about it, but if the knowing is a huge issue, you're free to change that situation.

[RichKlit]

Come on this getting silly? Now I'm forced to move because he can't comply to any sort of testing. Let's not lose sight of the gravity of what happened? For crying out loud I'm not even calling for him to be locked up. Is it that far out there in today's world to really feel like a man that did this horrific crime submit to some random monitoring or testing?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

Come on this getting silly? Now I'm forced to move because he can't comply to any sort of testing.

What? No one is forcing you to do anything at all. You're free to do as you wish. You're the one being silly insinuating that. If you don't want to live near Li, that's your choice. Of course, trying to find a place in any city where you aren't surrounded by someone more likely to violently re-offend would be near impossible outside of multi-million dollar closed gated communities.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I read an article from the globe and mail that focused on what I might characterize as the "forgotten victims" (at least forgotten by me) - the witnesses - horrible event for them.

I was initially indifferent to his release; however, I think I have changed my mind that feel that eh should be under close supervision.

It's amazing how the people that actually remember the crime in vivid detail are being ignored by the system, and left to suffer. Millions spent on Li, and the rest of them got a big FU from the health care system. One first responder driven to suicide. Even worse, for the family knowing Li is a free man now. What an absolute nightmare for them, and added suffering for the rest of their lives.

Nothing will ever convince me this is the right thing to do when you factor in the collateral damage, and ongoing victimization that continues to be forced on the true victims.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...free-1.3979368

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

Come on this getting silly? Now I'm forced to move because he can't comply to any sort of testing. Let's not lose sight of the gravity of what happened? For crying out loud I'm not even calling for him to be locked up. Is it that far out there in today's world to really feel like a man that did this horrific crime submit to some random monitoring or testing?

Who is forcing you to move? You should do whatever makes you most comfortable, which only you can control.

Good or bad, the monitoring argument is fruitless. He's not being forced to submit to testing or monitoring. Absolute discharge. It's already done.

I dont blame anyone if it makes them nervous. It would make ME nervous if he was my neighbor. Despite professionals saying he's low risk, your gut is your gut. I would probably move, but my personal gut feelings and concerns are not, and should not, be factors in the freedom of another human being. I accept the professional opinions of those who know much much more than I do and have spent the better part of a decade with Li, working with him and monitoring his situation. I trust that their knowledge and recommendations should take precedent over my feelings.

But do I trust Li, personally? No.
I just don't think I'm owed anything for a gut feeling, when it's admittedly based on knowledge limited to the details of the crime, not the rehabilitation. Why is anyone else?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by pylon

One first responder driven to suicide.

His name:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

His name is Ken Barker, he was a 20 year member.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

What? No one is forcing you to do anything at all. You're free to do as you wish. You're the one being silly insinuating that. If you don't want to live near Li, that's your choice. Of course, trying to find a place in any city where you aren't surrounded by someone more likely to violently re-offend would be near impossible outside of multi-million dollar closed gated communities.

Is it fair that the surrounding neighbors should not only have to live the anxiety this guy is steps away, but also have their property values plummet in that scenario? Because if it became public knowledge, regardless of the community, or social caliber of the community, it's gonna cost ya.

I'm not a NIMBY within reason. But I would absolutely under no circumstances want Li living next door to my family primarily for their safety, but I also don't want to flush the value of my home down the toilet.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by pylon

It's amazing how the people that actually remember the crime in vivid detail are being ignored by the system, and left to suffer. Millions spent on Li, and the rest of them got a big FU from the health care system. One first responder driven to suicide. Even worse, for the family knowing Li is a free man now. What an absolute nightmare for them, and added suffering for the rest of their lives.

Nothing will ever convince me this is the right thing to do when you factor in the collateral damage, and ongoing victimization that continues to be forced on the true victims.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...free-1.3979368

The true victim is Tim McLean.

We do owe these people a lot more than anyone has offered them, and we owe them the best mental health resources that Canada has.

Should that debt be paid by Li? I don't know. Morally, it feels like it should be, but that's not how the legal system works. It's not how any modern legal system works. We don't base punishment or rehabilitation tactics on what is owed to the victims.

Whether we should or not is a different conversation. We don't measure crimes by how many people saw it, how many family members were impacted, how horrible it was for the first responders, and thats the way it should be in my opinion. The law should be as objective as possible. You're arguing for subjective law.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

Is it fair that the surrounding neighbors should not only have to live the anxiety this guy is steps away, but also have their property values plummet in that scenario?

Yeah, it sucks that the ignorance of the general public would do that and is completely unfair. But that's on us, not him. He's far less likely to re-offend than any violent criminal by magnitudes. Yet, nothing stopping most ex-con's living where they want. Hell, probably already have several living in your community today.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The true victim is Tim McLean.

We do owe these people a lot more than anyone has offered them, and we owe them the best mental health resources that Canada has.

Should that debt be paid by Li? I don't know. Morally, it feels like it should be, but that's not how the legal system works. It's not how any modern legal system works. We don't base punishment or rehabilitation tactics on what is owed to the victims.

Whether we should or not is a different conversation. We don't measure crimes by how many people saw it, how many family members were impacted, how horrible it was for the first responders, and thats the way it should be in my opinion. The law should be as objective as possible. You're arguing for subjective law.

I'm arguing the Health Care system should ramp it up, and without any cost considerations, and no questions asked offer these people the absolute best treatment possible.... like Li was afforded.

[RichKlit]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

What? No one is forcing you to do anything at all. You're free to do as you wish. You're the one being silly insinuating that. If you don't want to live near Li, that's your choice. Of course, trying to find a place in any city where you aren't surrounded by someone more likely to violently re-offend would be near impossible outside of multi-million dollar closed gated communities.

Naw it's you that can't for one second get off your high horse and acknowledge that there are some concerns here.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

Naw it's you that can't for one second get off your high horse and acknowledge that there are some concerns here.

I'm not saying there's not concerns. I'm saying those concerns should be less than your everyday run of the mill criminals.

Of course the sensationalization of the horrendous incident is going to cause emotions to be high. I get that. But our emotions should not dictate what an innocent man, no longer deemed a significant threat by the Criminal Review Board, should be allowed to do. That goes against pretty much the basis of the Criminal Justice System of Canada.

He's innocent, he's not a high threat, he gets to have the same freedoms me and you enjoy.

[RichKlit]

And none of that should stop him from submitting to some sort of monitoring or testing is all im saying. I'm not gonna say anymore on this cause I'm not looking for a message board fight. I'm not delusional enough to think I'm going to change anyone's mind, I rarely post, I felt compelled to comment for my own personal reasons, I've said my piece, I think I'm being fairly reasonable in my thoughts he should monitored in some way. Of course some will agree some won't.