Man charged after ‘multiple sexual assaults’ at West Edmonton Mall waterpark

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Fifty years and Canada is the next Iran? And youre not concerned?

Bunch of xenophobic nonsense.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Fifty years and Canada is the next Iran? And youre not concerned?

Nope. I can say with absolute certainty we will not become Iran.

[CliffFletcher]

At one time Catholicism was projected to swamp Protestants in North America, what with all those Irish and Italians not using birth control and having families with 6 and 7 kids. So making demographic projections is a mug's game. And anti-immigrant Canadians vastly over-estimate how many Canadians are Muslim today.

I do, however, disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter what religions become predominant. I'm an atheist, and Christianity has proven compatible with atheism. The fact I live in a majority Christian country in no way affects my individual freedoms. That would not be the case if I lived in a majority Muslim nation. The jury is still out on whether liberal democracy is viable in majority Muslim nations, and recent events are not encouraging.

Turkey was the great liberal democratic Muslim hope, and it is backsliding into authoritarianism deeply rooted religious conservatism. This is the case in much of Muslim world today, with the minority of secular-minded and liberal(ish) Muslims being oppressed by faster-growing conservative populations. Think of the divisive blue state vs red state split in the U.S., only much, much more severe, and with the conservative side being much, much more conservative, with a passionate belief that religion comes before secular laws.

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by street pharmacist

nope. I can say with absolute certainty we will not become iran.

lol

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Iran was far different 60 years ago while being just as Islamic as today.

I don't think this is accurate at all. Iran has become far more conservative and religious since then.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't think this is accurate at all. Iran has become far more conservative and religious since then.

I'm speaking demographically. They were a majority Muslim nation whilst not being a theocracy.

They've become far more conservative and far more fervent in their religious life, but the demographics haven't changed. They were close to 100% Muslim before the revolution and since.

The point I'm making is not against what Sam Harris et al make about the unique dangers of Islam, rather that the demographic fears of posters like I responded to aren't based in logic at all

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Ah, I see what you mean. That makes sense. I do think there is some level of concern that's justified, given that even England has seen some issues in this area. But it goes back to a failure of integration there. There's no issue with Canada having a large and growing segment of the population professing the Muslim faith, provided that those Muslims hold the largely secular views that most Canadian Muslims do now.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

At one time Catholicism was projected to swamp Protestants in North America, what with all those Irish and Italians not using birth control and having families with 6 and 7 kids. So making demographic projections is a mug's game. And anti-immigrant Canadians vastly over-estimate how many Canadians are Muslim today.

I do, however, disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter what religions become predominant. I'm an atheist, and Christianity has proven compatible with atheism. The fact I live in a majority Christian country in no way affects my individual freedoms. That would not be the case if I lived in a majority Muslim nation. The jury is still out on whether liberal democracy is viable in majority Muslim nations, and recent events are not encouraging.

Turkey was the great liberal democratic Muslim hope, and it is backsliding into authoritarianism deeply rooted religious conservatism. This is the case in much of Muslim world today, with the minority of secular-minded and liberal(ish) Muslims being oppressed by faster-growing conservative populations. Think of the divisive blue state vs red state split in the U.S., only much, much more severe, and with the conservative side being much, much more conservative, with a passionate belief that religion comes before secular laws.

Depends what sect of Christianity though. If the theocracy that the republican movement in the US would like to see is realized I'm not sure that would fit with your atheism. A separation of church and state is required and the religion doesn't really matter.

The question might be better asked is are there enough moderate Muslims who would support a separation of church and state for a liberal democracy to function. That same question also needs to be monitored in the US right now.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

Depends what sect of Christianity though. If the theocracy that the republican movement in the US would like to see is realized I'm not sure that would fit with your atheism. A separation of church and state is required and the religion doesn't really matter.

The question might be better asked is are there enough moderate Muslims who would support a separation of church and state for a liberal democracy to function. That same question also needs to be monitored in the US right now.

Well, the Muslims who have held any higher type of office thus far seem to be better at separating church and state than the Christians.

What's a moderate Muslim anyway? Isn't it just a Muslim? Do you call Aunt Cathy who goes to church every Sunday but doesn't hate gay people a "moderate Christian"?

Personally, I think most Muslims, especially those in Western countries, are probably counted amongst the "moderate" category. While people point to stats and say "yeah, but _ amount apparently support ___" there are similar issues in Western religions too. I find people, regardless of their religion, to be generally comfortable with saying both "I believe this should be this way" and "but I don't control other people"

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Well, the Muslims who have held any higher type of office thus far seem to be better at separating church and state than the Christians.

What's a moderate Muslim anyway? Isn't it just a Muslim? Do you call Aunt Cathy who goes to church every Sunday but doesn't hate gay people a "moderate Christian"?

Personally, I think most Muslims, especially those in Western countries, are probably counted amongst the "moderate" category. While people point to stats and say "yeah, but _ amount apparently support ___" there are similar issues in Western religions too. I find people, regardless of their religion, to be generally comfortable with saying both "I believe this should be this way" and "but I don't control other people"

I was more responding to cliffs question that can Muslim Majority countries form liberal democracies. My argument is that it's not a function of the type of religion it's a fiction of having enough people who want separation of church and state.

A moderate Muslim or Christian would be supportive of equality rights of gender and sexual orientation despite what select sections of their religious text would say. They would also trust science as a tool.

I more or less agree with you on your assessment of the moderateness of most Muslims in Canada.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Fifty years and Canada is the next Iran? And youre not concerned?

lol.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Personally, I think most Muslims, especially those in Western countries, are probably counted amongst the "moderate" category. While people point to stats and say "yeah, but _ amount apparently support ___" there are similar issues in Western religions too. I find people, regardless of their religion, to be generally comfortable with saying both "I believe this should be this way" and "but I don't control other people"

In Canada and the USA, I think you're probably right, though no one as far as I'm aware has done the leg work to confirm that. But in Western Europe, there's reason to think that this isn't the case for a large segment of the Muslim population, whether it's "most" or just a significant minority. And you really can't draw a false equivalence with Western religions - by which I assume you mean Christianity and Judaism?

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-cont...us-topline.pdf

You're going to have a hell of a time convincing me that half of British Christians or British Jews would answer a poll by saying that homosexuality should be illegal, or that gays shouldn't be allowed to be teachers, or that more of them will agree with the statement "wives should always obey their husbands" than disagree with it. These are cultural realities that need to be confronted and that obviously we don't want to see take root here among any segment of society, religious or otherwise.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Depends what sect of Christianity though. If the theocracy that the republican movement in the US would like to see is realized I'm not sure that would fit with your atheism. A separation of church and state is required and the religion doesn't really matter.

The number of American Christians who believe that the bible should have primacy over the constitution and the American judicial system are vanishingly small. Whereas in many of the largest Muslim-majority countries, a clear majority of Muslims who believe the Koran has primacy over secular law.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What's a moderate Muslim anyway?

One who puts secular law above religious law.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Personally, I think most Muslims, especially those in Western countries, are probably counted amongst the "moderate" category. While people point to stats and say "yeah, but _ amount apparently support ___" there are similar issues in Western religions too. I find people, regardless of their religion, to be generally comfortable with saying both "I believe this should be this way" and "but I don't control other people"

You can believe what you want. The attitudes captured in global polls say otherwise.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Too Many Preachers[edit]
In this section, Phillips refers to the large presence in the conservative coalition of religious Evangelicals and Pentecostals. He cites a statistic that 40% of the republican coalition is made up of such voters. He cites quotes by U.S. President George W. Bush suggesting that he is speaking for God (Phillips points to past leaders, such as Roman Dictator Julius Caesar who made similar statements.). He points to hostility by the social conservatives towards science in general, and Darwinian evolution in particular. But he particularly focuses on the end-times prophecies of what he refers to as Christian Reconstructionists.

Phillips starts this section by tracing the history of American religion. He argues that the pilgrims who emigrated to the New World before the American Revolution were religious outsiders, who were non-conformist and more radical than the establishment would allow (which was why they left Europe in the first place). He points to a history of highly emotional religious practices in the 17th and 18th centuries. He then argues that after "fundamentalist religion" (particularly Evangelical and the newly formed Pentecostal branches) were set back after the Scopes Monkey Trial, they appeared to have been dealt a permanent blow. Phillips cites statistical studies that suggest that after this point, fundamentalist religion grew at a rapid rate, while mainstream denominations actually declined (this was covered to most observers at the time due to other circumstances, such as the increase in population at the time.)

Phillips argues that religion is, by far, the most accurate predictor of political and ideological belief. He cites this as the primary determinant of who picked what side during what he refers to as the three great civil wars between English speaking people: the English Civil War in the 17th century, the American Revolution, and the American Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Theocracy

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The number of American Christians who believe that the bible should have primacy over the constitution and the American judicial system are vanishingly small. Whereas in many of the largest Muslim-majority countries, a clear majority of Muslims who believe the Koran has primacy over secular law.



One who puts secular law above religious law.



You can believe what you want. The attitudes captured in global polls say otherwise.

I've tried to look before and never found anything but does pew ask those same baseline questions to Christians as well. Like if you asked should the bible be the basis of law I wonder what kind of numbers you get amoung people self identifying as Christians and people who attend church regularly.

http://www.pewforum.org/2006/08/24/m...litics/Without that baseline information it's difficult to tell if the information in the above polls is a problem of religion or a problem of type of religion. You also need to assess those stats along demographics lines with income and education.

Right now those are numbers, but I think it becomes dangerous to infer keening from those numbers with out a lot of analysis to work out correlations vs causations.

I should add that I have read this survey: http://www.pewforum.org/2006/08/24/m...-and-politics/

Which doesn't have the same hard yes and no questions but it does put 60% of white evangelicals supporting the bible being basis of law and over 50% of the population of the survey saying that the decline in the bibles influence in law is a bad thing.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

One who puts secular law above religious law.



You can believe what you want. The attitudes captured in global polls say otherwise.

Thanks for completely ignoring any reference to Muslims in Western countries, period.

Muslims in sub-sahara Africa dislike gays.

S-H-O-C-K-E-D

There's also a poll amongst those which asked "Of those who support Sharia law, who believes it should apply to non-muslims" and, if I'm not mistaken, numbers around 55% would be considered high on the list of evaluations.

Context is everything. Have any polls of Christians in those regions?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

In Canada and the USA, I think you're probably right, though no one as far as I'm aware has done the leg work to confirm that. But in Western Europe, there's reason to think that this isn't the case for a large segment of the Muslim population, whether it's "most" or just a significant minority. And you really can't draw a false equivalence with Western religions - by which I assume you mean Christianity and Judaism?

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-cont...us-topline.pdf

You're going to have a hell of a time convincing me that half of British Christians or British Jews would answer a poll by saying that homosexuality should be illegal, or that gays shouldn't be allowed to be teachers, or that more of them will agree with the statement "wives should always obey their husbands" than disagree with it. These are cultural realities that need to be confronted and that obviously we don't want to see take root here among any segment of society, religious or otherwise.

Closed the window and lost my post, so I'll be brief:

It's getting better!

In this poll, Christians sit around 50% saying homosexuality should be accepted by society. Sub-genres do significantly worse, especially evangelicals, mormons, and jehovahs witnesses.

The thing that always amuses me is we make these broad "we dont want to see take route here" statements, as though the Muslim boogeyman is coming, but we already have religions here that have a fairly high potential for regressive behavior. I mean, name one good thing about mormonism? I can name a list of bad things. We don't fear them at all... we normalise them and give them TV shows.

I'm not disagreeing with your point that the British poll has some sad figures, but you don't have to look outside Christianity or North America for a few comparably bad ideas, and we're mostly letting them truck right along.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I mean, name one good thing about mormonism? I can name a list of bad things. We don't fear them at all... we normalise them and give them TV shows.

Relatively speaking? Mormons don't kill people for insulting Mormonism. It's not even a risk. Hell, there's a hit stage play touring the country that basically takes the piss out of Mormonism to the highest possible degree, without any fear of reprisal. The comparison is pretty obvious.

There's a big difference between asking whether homosexuality should be "accepted by society", and whether you should be thrown in jail for who you are. These are false equivalences. When I say I'd prefer not to see those sorts of values take root here, it's simply a matter of comparison with a comparably left-leaning society like Great Britain and noticing that the Muslim community there expresses values that I'd hope Canada's Muslim community would not. It's a problem I don't think we currently have in this country, and it's one I'd like to avoid.

If there are benign measures we can take to try to keep it that way, that don't impinge on Muslims' religious freedom any more than we limit religious practice elsewhere, I may be for them - but more likely, it's not going to be anything that the country does as much as what the Muslim community does to continue to favour a moderate interpretation of doctrine and a respect for secularism.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Closed the window and lost my post, so I'll be brief:

It's getting better!

In this poll, Christians sit around 50% saying homosexuality should be accepted by society. Sub-genres do significantly worse, especially evangelicals, mormons, and jehovahs witnesses.

The thing that always amuses me is we make these broad "we dont want to see take route here" statements, as though the Muslim boogeyman is coming, but we already have religions here that have a fairly high potential for regressive behavior. I mean, name % one good thing about mormonism? I can name a list of bad things. We don't fear them at all... we normalise them and give them TV shows.

I'm not disagreeing with your point that the British poll has some sad figures, but you don't have to look outside Christianity or North America for a few comparably bad ideas, and we're mostly letting them truck right along.

You're right we do already have conservative religions here, and quite frankly they get bashed and ostracized in mainstream conversation all of the time without fail. Case in point is the boys who were maimed or killed in the COP luge track accident. There was one or two quotes about how faith is helping the survivors come to terms with what happened and we have basically 90% of CP mocking their beliefs.

Here a Syrian refugee sexually assaults 6 or more girls and two thirds of this thread are trying to rationalize this man's behavior instead of calling out this complete piece of human garbage for what he is. Maybe if he were a Canadian born Morman we could all agree that what he did was wrong and that the real victims here are the 6 or more girls who were inappropriately touched.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Relatively speaking? Mormons don't kill people for insulting Mormonism. It's not even a risk. Hell, there's a hit stage play touring the country that basically takes the piss out of Mormonism to the highest possible degree, without any fear of reprisal. The comparison is pretty obvious.

Not only can the 'Book of Morman' travel throughout the country mocking Mormanism without fear of reprisal. The LDS church even takes out advertising in the Playbill of such play.