CHL minimum wage lawsuit reveals clubs' financials

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You could not possibly have picked a worse example, Oil Stain. Most of that World Junior profit went to the IIHF - a non-profit organization - and Hockey Canada - also a non-profit organization. That money helps fund many of the programs both run.

And everyone but the players on the ice were paid for their services.

[Northendzone]

I have not studied the list of players who are on board so far with this lawsuit, but are any NHL star players who played in the chl involved?

It is interesting that so many teams lost money, but I can't recall the last time I heard about a team in the whl shutting down, or needing to move - but maybe I missed the news.

I guess losing $200k on a 6 million per year budget is not bad.

As for the Quebec team flying everywhere, I always thought there was a "gentle mans" agreement to not do this as it gives a team too much of an advantage over another team. I thought this is why who teams will share a plane in the playoffs.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GGG

And everyone but the players on the ice were paid for their services.

Hey, they got a medal! Those things aint cheap!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GGG

And everyone but the players on the ice were paid for their services.

Irrelevant. He was complaining about how the organizations should be run as non-profits, and then used an example where most of the money went to non-profits.

Though something tells me that I'm also going to have to explain how being a non-profit does not preclude charging fans to attend.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

It is interesting that so many teams lost money, but I can't recall the last time I heard about a team in the whl shutting down, or needing to move - but maybe I missed the news.

Chilliwack to Victoria was the last relocation, in 2011. Lethbridge, Prince George and Cranbrook have all teetered on the edge since, but are stabilizing.

And to your comment on flying everywhere - that gentleman's agreement exists in the WHL. Can't speak to Quebec though.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

That is one player suing the QMJHL for $50 million dollars in damages. I am talking about the class action that is being done on behalf of many players.

It's the same thing. The one player is not claiming he is owed $50 million, he is the nominal plaintiff for the proposed class. From the article (which I got from a link on the law firm website that is running the class actions):

"Walter is asking that the Quebec court certify his case as a class action lawsuit and award damages of $50 million."

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Irrelevant. He was complaining about how the organizations should be run as non-profits, and then used an example where most of the money went to non-profits.

Though something tells me that I'm also going to have to explain how being a non-profit does not preclude charging fans to attend.

And being a non profit doesn't change the employee relationship with their employer.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by MBates

It's the same thing. The one player is not claiming he is owed $50 million, he is the nominal plaintiff for the proposed class. From the article (which I got from a link on the law firm website that is running the class actions):

"Walter is asking that the Quebec court certify his case as a class action lawsuit and award damages of $50 million."

good point. didn't read carefully enough.


I did find why the Alberta judge is allowing the OHL financial statements to be entered for the WHL class certification. The WHL is using affidavits from the OHL as support for their defense and therefore have opened the door to the OHL financials to be used in the WHL case. They did not use any QMJHL related affidavits and that is why they aren't releasing the QMJHL financial statements at this time.

There also doesn't appear to be a date set for the QMJHL class certification that I could find.

[flameester]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The players would probably be okay with that as well.

As far as I'm concerned the players should have up to 10 years to use their scholarships.

I'm sure plenty of guys bounce around the ECHL for a few years until the dream is dead. They should be able to use their scholarships at that point.

All CHL players signed to any professional contract lose their scholarship rights as soon as they sign.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why does the profitability of the businesses matter in determining if the kids are employees

legally what are they?

- they aren't customers like kids playing sports
- they aren't independent contractors as they aren't free to sign with who they want to
- they aren't volunteers
- so what's left is an employee

The problem is that we have let our sports teams off without competition. And this allows the monopoly to price fix. If you let the kids be independent contractors then some would be paid quite a bit while others would have parents paying for their spot on the team.

If the league as a whole is making a profit then their monopoly is unfairly restricting the earnings of the players.

There's more to independent contractors vs employee than just, "they aren't free to sign with who they want to". In determining pay and benefits etc, this will probably be the most contested issue for both sides. Should be interesting to see how each side argues their case.

You would also have a hard time convincing anyone that the CHL is a monopoly. Providing, arguably the fastest and most efficient route to the NHL doesn't mean it's a monopoly. A monopoly would imply that a player has no other choice of league to go to. CHL has to compete against AJHL or their equivalents, CIS and NCAA all of who are valid substitutes.

[burn_baby_burn]

For those that want to see these kids paid. How much more are you willing to pay for tickets to a CHL game? Knowing that the players on the ice are getting a fair pay check?

I'm not sure what attendance is like for most CHL markets, but here in Red Deer I notice a lot of seniors and kids at games compared to Flames games at the Dome. If players get paid, and ticket prices increase, the teams will lose these customers. If they don't have paying customers, how long till a bunch of teams fold and the major junior option isn't there anymore for player development?

I guess it's a small sacrifice to make in order to preserve workers rights. But probably not fair to the majority of players who have no problem with the current system and the majority of future players who would love to play under the current system some day.

[Northendzone]

it would be interesting to get a sense of how many hours per week on average the boys work per week. I assume work could be one or more of the following activities:
- on ice practice - do you count the fact that they are likely at the rink 1 hour or more before practice to stretch warm up, tape sticks etc
- off ice workouts - dryland
- public relations type stuff
- game time including travel - I am assuming that for a team like the rebels, a game in Calgary or edmonton is close to a 7 to 8 hr time commitment. obviously road trips to places like Brandon/prince George, or portland are huge time commitments.

then take the average # of hrs per week and multiply it by some wage (is $12/hr fair or should it be more) to ultimately come up with a payroll for the players

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

it would be interesting to get a sense of how many hours per week on average the boys work per week. I assume work could be one or more of the following activities:
- on ice practice - do you count the fact that they are likely at the rink 1 hour or more before practice to stretch warm up, tape sticks etc
- off ice workouts - dryland
- public relations type stuff
- game time including travel - I am assuming that for a team like the rebels, a game in Calgary or edmonton is close to a 7 to 8 hr time commitment. obviously road trips to places like Brandon/prince George, or portland are huge time commitments.

then take the average # of hrs per week and multiply it by some wage (is $12/hr fair or should it be more) to ultimately come up with a payroll for the players

Do you deduct for schooling or cost for equipment? With all the advisers and resources they have access too, it probably would be similar to a private school.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Do you deduct for schooling or cost for equipment? With all the advisers and resources they have access too, it probably would be similar to a private school.

Do you deduct from your pay all the resources and supplies you have access to at your job?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You could not possibly have picked a worse example, Oil Stain. Most of that World Junior profit went to the IIHF - a non-profit organization - and Hockey Canada - also a non-profit organization. That money helps fund many of the programs both run.

I was just using that example to show that junior hockey is a big money making business.

This isn't your uncle Jim and aunt Barb running junior hockey teams. It's the top half of the 1 percent buying these clubs.

The way I see it, you run a development league or you run a business. If you are running a business then you should pay your employees.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm sorry, I fail to see how a scholarship is completely useless?

They play hockey.

In return they get paid, albeit poorly I wont argue that, and they're given the opportunity to get an education.

Its useless if you have no intention of going to college or university.