Flames are committed to keeping Sam Bennett at centre

[blender]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Yet you thank a cherry picked/false post by Misterjoji.

Thornton was a 0.75 ppg player at age 20, Bennett? 0.36 ppg.

Tarasenko at age 20, in KHL had 47 points in 54 games.

I don't really give a poop about the name on the back as long as they play well for the logo on the front. Bennett has not done that.

All the fanboys can defend him as much as they want to, but the facts are right there.

So if he's not Tarasenko or Thornton he's garbage.

Not sure I support your assessment.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Thornton age 20, 3rd year.
Tarasenko age 20, no years.

Maybe stop cherry picking yourself.

Right, the 55 games played by Joe as an 18 year old is the reason why he was a 0.75 ppg as a 20 year old and Bennett 0.36.

Whatever fanboy, there's a herd of you that will defend him for no reason so I'll let you kids carry on.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by blender

So if he's not Tarasenko or Thornton he's garbage.

Not sure I support your assessment.

Not names I brought up. Misterjoji mentioned those two amongst other great players.

From what I can see right now, he'll be a decent third liner. Which is not great but not garbage either.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Whatever fanboy, there's a herd of you that will defend him for no reason so I'll let you kids carry on.

lol

[blender]

Time will tell.
High expectations are hard for fans on internet forums to manage. We will hopefully all be alright.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Bennett's criticism is valid. He's started in the offensive zone 60% of the time and he's averaged nearly 2 mins of PP time.

1:28/game. 7th for forwards in PP icetime per game.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by blender

Time will tell.
High expectations are hard for fans on internet forums to manage. We will hopefully all be alright.

I hope I'm wrong and he comes off the bye week and scores a lot of points ad starts playing well. Only want the best for the team I cheer for.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

1:28/game. 7th for forwards in PP icetime per game.

My mistake. I was looking at his career average when I posted that.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by blender

Time will tell.
High expectations are hard for fans on internet forums to manage. We will hopefully all be alright.

It's because he's a 4th OA pick. If he was a 6th rounder nobody would be suggesting that he's underwhelming, and in fact, for a 6th rounder he'd be a bloody steal with 20 points in 55gp for his third season after being drafted.

This is why I don't like some of these comparisons, especially considering some of them (ie Thornton) played in a different era. I'd prefer looking at Drouin, Monahan, Strome, Zibanejad, Galy, Ryjo, Duchene, etc. Guys drafted high in today's NHL as a junior centre and then played at centre thereafter.

[MarkGio]

Comparisons in Bennett's favor are the following guys who took a while to come into their own:

B. Schenn
S. Couterier
N. Kadri
J. Bailey
M. Granlund
K. Turris


But keep in mind there's also guys like the following:
Hamill
Burmistrov
Hodgson
Da Colle

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Now some actual facts.



Ryan Getzlaf:

In his first year (age = 20) had 39 points in 57 games. Next year (age = 21) he had 58 in 82.

0.7 ppg in first 2 years.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...getzlry01.html



Joe Thornton:

Age 18: 55 Games: 7 Points

Age 19: 81 Games: 41 Points

Age 20: 81 Games: 60 Points

Age 21: 72 Games: 71 Points

By his 3rd full season, he was a ppg.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thornjo01.html



Eric Staal:

In his rookie year he had 31 points as a 20 year old.

In his 2nd season he had 100 points as a 21 year old.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...staaler01.html



Vlad Tarasenko:

First full NHL season at age 22, he had 43 points in 64 games.

Second full season at age 23, he had 73 points in 77, including 37 goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...tarasvl01.html



Claude Giroux:

First Half Season: Age: 21, Games: 42, Points: 27

First Full Season: Age: 22, Games 82, Points: 47

Second Full Season: Age: 23, Games 82, Points: 76

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...giroucl01.html



Backlund took 7-8 years to become what he is. Good luck to anyone who wants to wait that long.



Sam Bennett:

First Full Season: Age 19, Games: 77, Points: 36

Second Full Season: Age 20, Games: 55, Points 20

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...bennesa01.html



Basically you tried to move numbers around in order justify his horrendous play all season. The guys you listed were trending upwards and becoming stars. Bennett looks nothing more then a 3rd liner at best right now.



Forget points from all these players. If you honestly think Bennett has played remotely well at anytime this season then you're lying to yourself. 20 year old yada yada yada excuses...this is a league where every year younger guys are coming in playing well, he is expected to do the same, now would be the time to start.



I sure as hell hope he can figure it out otherwise what a wasted pick.

Re: Getzlaf, nice omission about the lockout. So he was actually 22 when he got 58 in 82. Giving Bennett 2 years to reach that mark, which is totally reasonable.

Re: Thornton, sorry miscalculated by a year, he didn't explode until he was 23 (not 24) getting 101 points. However, if Bennett wasn't injured his whole rookie year it's not obscene to think he could've duplicated last year (especially since multiple players had career highs that year), so 72 points over 2 seasons. Now assume Thornton would've played 82 games his rookie year that works out to a whopping 10 points and his 2nd year was 41. Bennett outscores him by almost double over their first 2 years. Hell, assume Bennett gets half of last years totals in his first season, he still outscores Joe 55 to 51. Nice try. Also Joe was a PPG by his 4th season, not 3rd. Looks like I'm not the only one who miscalculated a little.

Re: Staal, again you conveniently omitted the lockout. So at age 20 he got 31, which will be a whole one more point than what Sam is on pace to have. As a 21 year old he had 77 points in 77 AHL games. Pretty easy jump to assume Sam could do the same in the AHL next year. By 22 Eric had his breakout season. Nothing I said there was incorrect.

Re: Tarasenko, sorry, I didn't notice he played for 2 KHL teams in 2011/12. So that's 47 points in 54 KHL games at age 20. The K isn't in the NHL, that's not all that impressive. Remember how well Cervenka did after good KHL numbers? So essentially Sam has 2 full years to try and get the equivalent of 47 points in 64 games and 3 more full years to really breakout. Not a huge stretch.

Re: Giroux, my numbers are accurate. He was born in 1988 so his 20 year old year is 2008. In 2008/2009 he had the equivalent of 52 points over 82 games. The next year he regressed to 47 and then when he was 22 he was almost PPG. At 23 is when he really exploded.

Nice try man, but my numbers hold up except for that one hiccup. Your "actual facts" don't disprove a thing. If you think Bennett has a ceiling as a 3rd liner, thank god you're not the GM. You seem to have an unexplained hate on for a kid who is 20 years old and was injured almost his entire 18 year old season. Prospect progression is rarely linear. We'll see who's a better scout when he hits 22/23 years old.

[GioforPM]

Valid or invalid comparisons aside, I think GG had some good comments that made sense. In particular, it's easier to take a guy who plays centre for a while and make him a winger than vice versa.

If Bennett works out as a centre it's for the best. If he can't but then makes a transition to a good winger, that's pretty good too.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

All players should develop in exact same way and pace, and it's completely fair to write players off if they aren't producing exactly the same pace as the current superstars were in their first couple of seasons.

It's also really smart to write off a 20 year in their 2nd pro season when both have been in the NHL. We should totally dump Bennett for a much older centre if there are any takers cause this teams window is clearly now and Bennetts bring us down.

[Monahan For Mayor]

For me it's still about his on ice IQ. I can't help but question it, and how many players have never lived up to their billing because of lack of IQ ? I also think he needs to get bigger. He's just to small for the play style he has. Hopefully he proves me wrong. I wanted him over everyone else in his draft year, and hope he lives up to my personal hype. Prove me right Sam. I backed you up against Drai and Reinhart over and over!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

For me it's still about his on ice IQ. I can't help but question it, and how many players have never lived up to their billing because of lack of IQ ? I also think he needs to get bigger. He's just to small for the play style he has. Hopefully he proves me wrong. I wanted him over everyone else in his draft year, and hope he lives up to my personal hype. Prove me right Sam. I backed you up against Drai and Reinhart over and over!

What makes you question his hockey IQ? The offensive zone penalties?

[GoJetsGo]

It's fine to be sour about him not taking another step this year.

It's the smug and overly negative writing him off that's just atrocious to read.

Not all development is linear.

Bennet lost a year of development due to injury.

He plays a very physical game that his frame hasn't fully filled into at this point.

There are a list of reasons why the organization can and will be patient with him.

It's just too bad those devoid of that context seem to be the most smug and vocal about it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Wow some pretty brutal posts by Da Chief. Teach me not to look at posts by ppl on my ignore list, yikes

[dying4acup]

I wonder how history would be different if Bennett never got hurt. Also wonder how things would have progressed if The Flames never burned the first year of his ELC during the playoff run. I feel like that forced them to keep him in the NHL ever since.

What ifs aside, it is a nice problem to have that one of our super high picks isn't quite achieving as expected, while others are flourishing.

I think Bennett will be fine. Time will show us.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Re: Staal, again you conveniently omitted the lockout. So at age 20 he got 31, which will be a whole one more point than what Sam is on pace to have. As a 21 year old he had 77 points in 77 AHL games. Pretty easy jump to assume Sam could do the same in the AHL next year. By 22 Eric had his breakout season. Nothing I said there was incorrect.

Staal was drafted in 2003. Directly after being drafted he put up 31 points. In 2005-2006, which he started as a 20 year old, he had 100 points.

[GranteedEV]

I wonder if people would even bother to consider that:

- He never played PP1 unlike most young instant success stories going to thin rosters
- His #1/#2 even strength icetime linemates have been career established 3rd/4th liners Alex Chiasson and Troy Brouwer (this reeks of those Backlund/Bouma years. See what getting Backs away from Bouma did for the lone top six forward in that combo? Or what getting Kuznetsov away from Brouwer did? Or how much even Turris struggled eith Chiasson? )
- His #3 even strength ice time teammate has been career #6/#7 defenseman Deryk Engelland. When your D-man spends all his shifts defending as a career trend, you are likely to be spending all your shifts defending.
- He (or/and Tkachuk btw) is never used in 4v4 or 3v3 situations instead of a certain career 3rd/4th liner who is simply awful in those situations.

If that is peoples' idea of a player being set up to succeed "because of 60% zone starts" I would point to Leon Draisaitl's zone starts as a rookie under Eakins. Zone starts are not highly correlated with individual success the way quality of teammate is. I am sure the Chiasson/Brouwer/Engelland(/Jokipakka) defense brigade will eyeroll at me for my dislike of players whose only role is to fulfil aesthetics but that same Draisaitl has played with Patrick Maroon, Connor McDavid, and Adam Larsson as his three 5v5 ice time linemate leaders, three excellent players instead lf three players who could get injured tomorrow and be replaced by someone off our struggling farm team without batting an eyelash. Last year, when he was 20, it was Hall, Purcell, and Sekera. Purcell's pretty soft, but Hall is a superstar and Sekera is a dependable and offensively capable #3.

The Flames can afford to protect Bennett from high quality of competition because Backlund, Stajan, and more recently, even Monahan have been pretty solid at center. But that does not excuse them setting Bennett up to fail nonetheless. Our right wing depth and (usual) 3rd defense pairing are by most modern measures atrocious. If Bennett had Hall and Sekera on the ice with him at all times I do not think he would be struggling this season. And while the Gaudreau experiment did not pay dividends, that was as much on the RW/D/Gaudreau himself playing unspectacularily as it was on on Bennett. Gaudreau hasn't exactly looked great at 5v5 with Monahan either.

I mean, the best persisting linemate Bennett has had this year is actually Kris Versteeg. A guy who, during training camp, was on a PTO.