Bruins fire Julien

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Yes, all of them. They've earned one of a possible 8 points. That's dismal.

You cannot possibly have watched that game. The Flames played excellent and were unlucky to have not earned a win in a contest that was ultimately decided in a fairly arbitrary skills competition. But given your constant derision of Gulutzen, and don`t expect a particularly rational and balanced response from you on such matters.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Clearly some fans cannot handle a rebuilding team which is where we still are.

The narrative behind Gulutzan's hiring and Hartley's firing was that Bob "took the team as far as he could."

That's straight from the GM's mouth. This predicament of the Flames paying multiple coaches has nothing to do with fans being impatient.

You've even said it yourself, GG isn't getting fired. If Treliving had exhibited a little more patience himself, they'd have a shot at Julien. He's a clear cut upgrade on Gulutzan.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You cannot possibly have watched that game. The Flames played excellent and were unlucky to have not earned a win in a contest that was ultimately decided in a fairly arbitrary skills competition. But given your constant derision of Gulutzen, and don`t expect a particularly rational and balanced response from you on such matters.

I've heard that somewhere before. Visually they looked good. Sure then.

A rational and balanced response is they have 1 of 8 points in contests vs. Edmonton this season. That's not good.

Look man, if criticism of the coach and GM are off limits for you just put me on ignore. You've even got the "you didn't watch the game" defense going.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

The narrative behind Gulutzan's hiring and Hartley's firing was that Bob "took the team as far as he could."

That's straight from the GM's mouth. This predicament of the Flames paying multiple coaches has nothing to do with fans being impatient.

You've even said it yourself, GG isn't getting fired. If Treliving had exhibited a little more patience himself, they'd have a shot at Julien. He's a clear cut upgrade on Gulutzan.

He certainly seems to be at the present, but I am not convinced the upgrade over the long term is nearly as "clear." It is not clear how effective Gulutzen is as a coach without at least a full season to evaluate.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

The narrative behind Gulutzan's hiring and Hartley's firing was that Bob "took the team as far as he could."

That's straight from the GM's mouth. This predicament of the Flames paying multiple coaches has nothing to do with fans being impatient.

You've even said it yourself, GG isn't getting fired. If Treliving had exhibited a little more patience himself, they'd have a shot at Julien. He's a clear cut upgrade on Gulutzan.

All that would have been required was to write off this season in advance, either by retaining a coach whom the players hated and were no longer listening to, or by having no coach at all. Yup, no reason at all except Treliving's lack of patience.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by JTech780

That is a legit question and I would add, How does Cam Neely still have a job?

I ask the same question about MacT and Lowe still having a job in Edmonton. McDavid just saved them big time!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I've heard that somewhere before. Visually they looked good. Sure then.

A rational and balanced response is they have 1 of 8 points in contests vs. Edmonton this season. That's not good.

Look man, if criticism of the coach and GM are off limits for you just put me on ignore. You've even got the "you didn't watch the game" defense going.

Because I find it impossible to reconcile your opinion of the outcome of this game with the game itself. Sometimes the better team does not win; quite often, the better team does not win in a shootout. I can agree with you that the outcome in the season series with the Oilers is unacceptable, and this is something that must improve in the future (mind you, I would not set that outcome solely at the feet of the head coach). But beyond that, I was merely pointing out that despite the record, the Flames were unequivocally NOT terrible in one of those four games. For you to summarily dismiss how they played based on the outcome is shortsighted and disingenuous.

And I have no problem with valid criticism of the coach and management: there is plenty of well thought out and rational disagreement with decisions made by the Flames hockey ops that appear on this forum all the time. For example, I like many am also puzzled by Gulutzen's commitment to playing Brodie on the left side, although I am not certain that this is an egregious error, nor am I convinced that a reshuffling of the defensemen would make a significant improvement on the season results—it is a fairly small thing in my mind.

But what I cannot suffer is the constant and myopic bombardment of personnel in the absence of any acknowledgment for the improvements that Treliving and Gulutzen have provided this team this season. I cannot suffer the unbelievable level of impatience among some fans that tends to promote knee-jerk reactions to any misstep or shortcoming that the team experiences. The Flames are a work in progress that is far from completion, and I believe that Gulutzen plays a role in seeing the final outcome. He should be given the chance to realize it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I've heard that somewhere before. Visually they looked good. Sure then.

A rational and balanced response is they have 1 of 8 points in contests vs. Edmonton this season. That's not good.

Look man, if criticism of the coach and GM are off limits for you just put me on ignore. You've even got the "you didn't watch the game" defense going.

Instead of focusing on the results against one team, why not look at some of the results against the rest of the league? Here are some notable ones so far against playoff teams:

Minnesota (75 points): 3-0-0
San Jose (70 points): 2-1-0
Chicago (69 points): 1-2-0
Anaheim (66 points): 1-2-0
Nashville (60 points): 0-1-0
St. Louis (59 points): 1-1-0
LA Kings (58 points): 0-1-0

8-8-0 against the top teams in the West.

Washington (80 points): 0-1-0
Columbus (73 points): 1-1-0
Pittsburgh (72 points): 1-0-0
New York Rangers (69 points): 0-2-0
Montreal (68 points): 0-1-0
Ottawa (60 points): 2-0-0
Toronto (60 points): 1-1-0
Philadelphia (59 points): 0-1-0
Boston (58 points): 1-0-0

6-7-0 against the top teams in the East.

Having bad luck against one team isn't an indicator of anything. They played their first two against Edmonton and blew it. They weren't ready and I don't think anyone in the organization would tell you that they did enough to prepare for those games.

Later in the season the Flames lost a close game in a shootout despite dominating from start to finish. Then the bad habits from earlier in the year came back as the Flames entered another poor stretch right as they faced the Oilers for the 4th time.

It is completely myopic to be upset with Gulutzan because he lost games to Edmonton, and it's bordering on stupid to claim that he's done a worse job than Hartley when every metric suggests that Gulutzan has done a much better job.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Clearly some fans cannot handle a rebuilding team which is where we still are.

Yeah, it's completely ridiculous actually.
I expected top 10 goaltending, and instead we are 23rd. This is the only big disappointment of the season so far, but in spite of that they have been in a playoff spot more than they have been out of one, and I'd wager even league average goaltending from here on will keep them in the hunt for playoffs until the end.
If expectations were higher than that, they were unfounded.
I wonder how much of the angst is simply because the Flames are looking quite a ways up at the Oilers in the standings. Were the Oil following their usual routine of dropping to 28 or lower by now, I expect there would be quite a bit less panicked over reaction, like we have seen quite a bit around here.

[kukkudo]

Not Julien related. I can tell you one thing when they traded for Elliot they were expecting the St Louis Elliot. If the Flames had St Louis Elliot this season we would probably be fighting with the Sharks at the top.

Nobody would even bring up GG being fired etc.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Not Julien related. I can tell you one thing when they traded for Elliot they were expecting the St Louis Elliot. If the Flames had St Louis Elliot this season we would probably be fighting with the Sharks at the top.

Nobody would even bring up GG being fired etc.

That and the team shooting percentage 5v5.

If this team shot the puck at the same shooting percentage as last year it would mean 17 more goals 5v5.

If we were even at 15th in league in shooting percentage instead of 24th it would mean that we have 9 more goals 5v5 this season.

Also if the team got even top 15 goal-tending this year it would have meant that we allowed 10 fewer goals on the season.

19 goals would go a long way to making this team look like a contender, they would move from 19th in goal differential to being a top 10 team in goal differential.

[SuperMatt18]

Also think its funny that people will give Hitchcock and Julien a pass because of the team struggles being due to save percentage and shooting percentage while the Flames are actually in a similar predicament.

5v5 Shooting Percentage:
Flames: 24th - 6.84%
Blues: 6th - 8.86%
Bruins: 30th - 6.00%

5v5 Save Percentage
Flames: 24th - .916 (For reference 2015 was .911)
Blues: 27th - .910
Bruins: 28th - .907

[MisterJoji]

Just as Hartley should've been afforded one more season with goaltending that is was not league worst, I think Gulutzan should be afforded a season with Johnny and Mony present for a full training camp. This team has shown flashes of greatness (wins against Minnesota x 2, Pittsburgh, thumping Anaheim) and some flashes of garbage (losses to Oilers x 4, New Jersey, Phoenix). This is a bubble team on paper and the fact that we currently sit in a playoff position (yes games in hand blah blah blah) isn't exactly underperforming. It would be nice if the top line was lights out as in years previous, but the MMM line is one of the best defensive and offensive lines in the league in terms of advanced stats. I'm not opposed to seeing what Gulutzan can do as his system becomes more ingrained/2nd nature and if Treliving can somehow acquire a legitimate top line RW and an improvement in goaltending for him. Subtracting Wideman can't hurt either.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Just as Hartley should've been afforded one more season with goaltending that is was not league worst, I think Gulutzan should be afforded a season with Johnny and Mony present for a full training camp...

I was okay with Hartley starting the season with the Flames, but I can also accept Treliving's rationale for making the change when he did. Hartley's system was successful in one season for this team who was working to overcome its many weaknesses and become competitive. It became abundantly clear last year that Hartley could not manufacture the sort of puck possession that Treliving envisioned for the team to be successful in the long term. Given the team's rather dramatic improvement in underlying areas under Gulutzen, I would argue that the decision was probably the right one at the right time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Just as Hartley should've been afforded one more season with goaltending that is was not league worst, I think Gulutzan should be afforded a season with Johnny and Mony present for a full training camp.

It's funny that a lot of the same people who say "Hartley should have been given more time" are the ones calling for GG's head after 2/3 of a season.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Not Julien related. I can tell you one thing when they traded for Elliot they were expecting the St Louis Elliot. If the Flames had St Louis Elliot this season we would probably be fighting with the Sharks at the top.

Nobody would even bring up GG being fired etc.

I'm not sure why they were expecting that though. Despite his stats, I don't think you'd have anyone that would have considered him a tier 1 goalie, most would just think he was the product of the team he was playing for. You can't take a guy off one of the best teams in the league with one of the best defences, and expect you are going to get similar results on a young team with some pretty big holes.

That said, I fully expected Elliott to be an upgrade on what we had last year. I don't think you can say he is though at this point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'm not sure why they were expecting that though. Despite his stats, I don't think you'd have anyone that would have considered him a tier 1 goalie, most would just think he was the product of the team he was playing for. You can't take a guy off one of the best teams in the league with one of the best defences, and expect you are going to get similar results on a young team with some pretty big holes.

That said, I fully expected Elliott to be an upgrade on what we had last year. I don't think you can say he is though at this point.

I think he's a clear upgrade from last year. He's had some horrible outings, especially early, but IMO he's way more solid. And the tandem is also clearly better.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think he's a clear upgrade from last year. He's had some horrible outings, especially early, but IMO he's way more solid. And the tandem is also clearly better.

He's not an upgrade at all. He is 52nd in the league in GAA and 65th in SV% at .895. He's basically bottom of the barrel. He's so far down in the goalie stats you have to click to the second page on NHL.com

Johnson is 28th in GAA and 38th in GAA.

Johnson may be a bit of an upgrade to last year, but his stats are not great either and he's still letting in the softies. His stats are quite pedestrian when you cancel out his little hot streak he went on. He's an above average backup. He wasn't brought here to start though, so that says all you need to about Elliott performance to date.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

He's not an upgrade at all. He is 52nd in the league in GAA and 65th in SV% at .895. He's basically bottom of the barrel. He's so far down in the goalie stats you have to click to the second page on NHL.com...

Elliott allows less than 0.5 goals against/game than Hiller did last year, and he has earned two more wins in the same number of games. Chad Johnson has won the same number of games as did Rämo last year in six fewer games. They have not been all that great, but are definitely a clear upgrade on what the Flames had in goal last year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Elliott allows less than 0.5 goals against/game than Hiller did last year, and he has earned two more wins in the same number of games. Chad Johnson has won the same number of games as did Rämo last year in six fewer games. They have not been all that great, but are definitely a clear upgrade on what the Flames had in goal last year.

Johnson is, Elliott is really no different in mind, he's Hiller version 2.0.

Anyway you slice it, we still are getting bottom of the league level goaltending. It's nowhere near good enough, and just being a fraction of a bit better statistically than last year goaltending gongshow is a huge problem and disappointment.

I'll reserve final judgement on Gulutzan until he has a season where this is addressed (and i'm not a fan of Gulutzan either). If it's not addressed this off season, i'll be full on the fire Treliving boat.