Bruins fire Julien

[polak]

Originally Posted by heep223

You're removing the team's best stretch of games to prove your point and then saying cherry picking stats is dumb?

Cause someone else said that "GG won't be fired cause if you remove the bad start we have been a winning team" or whatever. But if you remove the 6 game streak they have been terrible.

Hence, cherry picking is dumb.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

How do coaching contracts work? Can he even be under contract with two teams at the same time?

I assume that he can't, so could we potentially get him for cheap? Could we get Boston to pay for half of his contract with us in exchange for signing him and nullifying his contract with them? Instead of paying 3m for him to sit for a year and a half, they pay 1.5m while he's our coach?

Keep in mind I'm a crackhead when it comes to understanding how these contracts are structured, so go easy on me.

Short version: If someone is under contract, the firing team still pays him the remainder of the contract. If someone else wants to hire him, technically they have to ask permission, as he is under contract. Most teams give permission, as it gets them out of having to pay the remainder of the contract.

However, a team does not have to grant permission, but then continues to pay him if they refuse permission.

In regard to the last part of your actual question, I am not aware of any situations where the fired coach was paid by both teams, as the condition of granting permission is that if hired, you don't get paid by the firing team anymore.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SixPoundBurrito

...I'm just arguing that cherry picking stats is dumb and the Flames have been bad a lot more than they have been good this season so firing GG isn't some crazy notion.

I agree about cherry picking, but I don't see how you have managed two come to this conclusion. They were bad in spots for a four week stretch at the beginning of the season, and another 3–4 game spell over a week last month. Otherwise I think the Flames have played quite well.

[nik-]

I'd hate to see what you consider a poor team.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by SixPoundBurrito

Cause someone else said that "GG won't be fired cause if you remove the bad start we have been a winning team" or whatever. But if you remove the 6 game streak they have been terrible.

Hence, cherry picking is dumb.

Maybe you should read the post instead of "or whatever" since nobody said what you're arguing against.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SixPoundBurrito

Cause someone else said that "GG won't be fired cause if you remove the bad start we have been a winning team" or whatever. But if you remove the 6 game streak they have been terrible.

Hence, cherry picking is dumb.

But there is a big difference between taking a measured view of a new coach's tenure with a young team, and arbitrarily pulling out their best run of the season. Would you not agree?

[JTech780]

I think GG has done a great job here with a pretty average roster.

He has 2 1B/Backup goalies, he is missing a top 4 defenseman, he has 3 7th defenseman (Wideman, Kulak, Jokipakka) who play regular minutes and in the case of Wideman 2nd pairing minutes, the forward group isn't overly big, fast or skilled. On paper this isn't a playoff team, but we are right in the thick of a playoff battle, that's a win in my books.

[GioforPM]

It makes far more sense to remove the first games than later ones, especially with (a) a new coach, (b) Monahan having almost no preseason, (c) Gaudreau having no preseason. Progression counts.

I look at the PK and PP improvement, the eventual buy in from more and more players and the somewhat more consistent play. The Montreal and Toronto collapses and the crappy play against the Oilers in the last game were more concerning than the start of the season, but then 3 in a row and a decent effort in the last game are positives.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree about cherry picking, but I don't see how you have managed two come to this conclusion. They were bad in spots for a four week stretch at the beginning of the season, and another 3–4 game spell over a week last month. Otherwise I think the Flames have played quite well.

In between the win streak and the start of the recent losing streak (so from the Tampa game to Florida game) they beat Arizona and Colorado 4 times, Vancouver twice and Florida once. The only team they managed to beat that could be considered a decent team during that stretch is SJ once. They went .500 during that time.

That's not bad but that's not "playing quite well" considering they followed it up with a 4 game losing streak where 3 of the losses were blow outs.

We'll see how they respond to the Loss against the Rangers tonight. They have looked the best they have since that win streak lately so hopefully they got the prolonged losing streaks out of the way.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe you should read the post instead of "or whatever" since nobody said what you're arguing against.

"He has the Flames in or close to a Wildcard playoff spot, and except for that horrible stretch pre all star game had guided the Flames to a incredibly good record after the slow start."

I disagree that they have been playing "Incredibly Good" since that slow start and think that simply ignoring two months of bad play and then another 4 games in a row is being disingenuous. Doesn't matter though, if you guys are happy with how the team has played this season than sweet. Maybe I'm in the minority but I'd jump all over the chance to get a good coach behind the bench.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by JTech780

He has 2 1B/Backup goalies, he is missing a top 4 defenseman, he has 3 7th defenseman (Wideman, Kulak, Jokipakka)

Quibble: Wideman isn't a 7th defenceman. He's a formerly decent second-pairing guy whose body can no longer cash the cheques that his brain keeps writing. He seems to keep trying plays (with and without the puck) that would actually work if he could still skate decently. But it looks like the legs are gone.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But there is a big difference between taking a measured view of a new coach's tenure with a young team, and arbitrarily pulling out their best run of the season. Would you not agree?

But your comment incorporates bias. Removing the initial stretch of the season and the pre all star stretch is "measured" and removing the winning streak on the back of a hot goalie is "arbitrary".

Cherry picking stretches of games just introduces bias into the equation.

Flames have started poorly before, not only when changing coaches. Other teams that changed coaches did not have the same bad start.

Other teams have hot goalies and win games. That's why you have a goalie.

Why not just go to the obvious conclusion? 50 games or so is not nearly enough time to fully evaluate this coach. There are good signs and bad signs.

[Geeoff]

How does Boston's GM still have a job?

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Quibble: Wideman isn't a 7th defenceman. He's a formerly decent second-pairing guy whose body can no longer cash the cheques that his brain keeps writing. He seems to keep trying plays (with and without the puck) that would actually work if he could still skate decently. But it looks like the legs are gone.

I have never viewed Wideman as a legit 2nd pairing defenseman, he masked it when he was putting 50+ points, but he has always been flat out terrible defensively. Now that he isn't producing and his defense has somehow gotten worse, he doesn't belong in the NHL.

I will add this just to be fair: Wideman is my least favorite player to ever play for the Calgary Flames and it isn't even close. I thought it was mistake when we traded for his rights and I thought it was insane when we gave him that ridiculous contract, I consider it to be amongst Feaster's biggest mistakes.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

How does Boston's GM still have a job?

That is a legit question and I would add, How does Cam Neely still have a job?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JTech780

That is a legit question and I would add, How does Cam Neely still have a job?

Would you want to piss off Sea Bass?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They're not going to fire GG

He has the Flames in or close to a Wildcard playoff spot, and except for that horrible stretch pre all star game had guided the Flames to a incredibly good record after the slow start.

Originally Posted by the2bears

Funny thing, though, if he made the bad start the emphasis no one complains about "cherry picking". As it was, he clearly mentioned the bad start and talked about the record since.

Agreed. If he hadn't cherry picked two stretches of the season, it would not be considered cherry picking.

[HappyGilmore]

Seems like a good time for Julien to sit back get paid and enjoy some time with his family. Can't see him rushing to get back into a job. Also LOL at the the suggestions to fire GG and bring in a new guy.

Honest question has this ever happened? Coach is fired and then another another team fires their coach to scoop him?

Edit: fired mid season sort of swap

[MrMastodonFarm]

December 1st 2002 Sharks Fire Darryl Sutter
December 3rd 2002 Flames fire Greg Gilbert
December 28th 2002 Flames hire Darryl Sutter

Maybe three weeks isn't a scoop but pretty darn close. There was a power struggle between Ken King and then GM Craig Button on the coach hiring, Button wanted Playfair IIRC. Might have been a faster hire if not for that.

[Sylvanfan]

I doubt Julien really wants to coach a team like the Flames. Right now the Flames maybe have one top 10 player in the league at his position. Other than that it's a pretty underwhelming roster.

Expecting a team to be much better than what it currently has with this roster is a bit out of touch if you ask me.

For what he's getting paid...he can sit and wait for a team with better pieces to come calling.

Realistically the Jets should be on the horn here.

[Huntingwhale]

As much as I'd like to see Julien become coach, GG has earned himself at the very least to the end of the season. The team is better is almost all the advanced stat catergories, and is fighting for a playoff spot. Seems like some of us here were expecting a division contender this season. They are pretty much exactly where I expected them to be; a bubble team that will push for a playoff spot until the last week of the season.

To me the perfect scenario is Julien takes some time off until the summer. At that point, depending of if/how far the Flames make it in the playoffs, GG is replaced. But only if we either miss the playoffs, or lay an egg in round 1.

Barring the team having a massive collapse and on it's way to another top 5 pick, I think it's pretty safe to say that GG will be here the rest of the season.

But man oh man, a coach like Julien behind the Flames bench would be exactly what the team needs to take the next step forward. I feel bad for management because I'm certain some are chomping at the bits to get him, but it would look really really bad on the organization as a whole if they let GG go right now.

Tough position for the Flames organization to be in right now. Stay the course and stand by your coaching hire as your team sits near a playoff spot? Or let GG go after 5 months on the job because something 'better' came by? It's like dumping your girl/boyfriend after 5 months when they turn out to be a pretty decent person, but then dump their ass as soon as the model becomes available.