Work to live or enjoy work?

[Swift]

I'm not judging Hack&Lube (to each their own), but I'd be curious to hear what his motivations are. What keeps you going? What's the end goal? I watched an episode of Dragon's Den recently and a couple of guys had sunk $700,000 of their own money in trying to get a new company off the ground, and I just kept wondering "why bother?" That seems like a ton of work. If I had $700,000 to spare, I'd invest it, hopefully reap some nice rewards and chill. Some people are just wired differently, I guess.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

I'm not judging Hack&Lube (to each their own), but I'd be curious to hear what his motivations are. What keeps you going? What's the end goal? I watched an episode of Dragon's Den recently and a couple of guys had sunk $700,000 of their own money in trying to get a new company off the ground, and I just kept wondering "why bother?" That seems like a ton of work. If I had $700,000 to spare, I'd invest it, hopefully reap some nice rewards and chill. Some people are just wired differently, I guess.

To some people, there's never enough. It's not even that they are greedy, it's just the way they are wired. Never satisfied. I have a friend back home in the Maritimes who was handed well over 100 M when he was around 19 years old. Dude didn't have to work a day in his life. He could have done nothing and just lived the rockstar life, he could have simply invested it pulling in a handsome interest check every year, but he finished university, started a business from scratch (though he fully admits its much easier when you don't have to take capital loans), and now continues to build even more wealth.

This guy works over 60 hours a week. Other than a few flashy toys and a house, you'd never know he didn't have to work a day in his life if he so chose to. He was recently in a wedding party with me at a destination wedding down in Mexico, and the groom had to beg him to leave NB and come be part of the wedding party. The most he would commit to was 3 days, and than it was back to work for him. He only came because he felt obligated. I guarantee you he took no joy out of sitting on a beach chair drinking for 3 days. The thing about people like that though is that they never really enjoy their wealth, so what's the point of amassing it? I guess that's why I'll never be in Forbes magazine.

[steve9981]

nm

[OMG!WTF!]

So I guess I'm the only observing Work Naked Day. Great.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It's only a gamble if you view it in black & white terms like win or lose. Working various jobs and starting different companies have given me opportunities to do and try things many people normally would never have. We all value different things in life.

I have never taken a vacation in my adult life and I honestly see no need to do so. I hate vacations. I never know what to do. I've done school semesters in Europe, I've traveled for work. I've taken trips to do business research for my own company, etc. One time I went to Hawaii for a family wedding and I was completely lost as to what to do with my time. I ended up buying a guitar from a ukele shop and spent a few days teaching myself a bunch of songs on the beach because I needed a purpose or needed to be productive. People value different things and are driven for different things.

I might be on the wrong track, but when I say I'm working x number of hours a week so that I don't have to later, my real goal for doing this so that I don't have to work the 8-5 shift at an office anymore in 5-10 years and can do the actual work that I really want to do. I wouldn't want to retire. You're right, I'll probably never stop working.

For that reason I'm in. If you ever need a business loan that is.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

I can certainly respect why you do it; based on your description you enjoy it more than other things.

This is a red flag to me. If this were me, I wouldn't know what to do because I'd be in constant stress mode thinking about work 24/7 (by the sounds of it). Our body adapts to how it's used and I don't think that taking a few days off to travel = vacation when the whole time you're thinking about your 4 jobs. I wouldn't enjoy being somewhere else when I'm stressing about work either.

It sounds like you're quite successful and I assume you have some money saved up as you don't spend any on vacations, socializing, etc. What stops you from doing this now?

Stress is a mental thing, it's about how you look at it, and people get stress from different things. For workaholics, they get stressed by things that are left unfinished so they have a constant urge to do work. In your case, you might de-stress by getting away. My other friend who has her own business is constantly stressed unless she is taking care of her emails and to-do's etc. She went to Las Vegas over Christmas and stayed in the hotel room working the whole time. You are spot on, workaholics probably don't enjoy being somewhere else because they feel like I need to be doing something. While you might feel better lying on a beach, a workaholic is feeling stressed that they are wasting their time and not getting things done.

I'm not successful at all. I've probably spent over 6 figures into two businesses that are not paying back and I'm doing okay in the others. Like I said, it's kind of like gambling. There's an urge to try other things and make it back. It's probably not healthy but I'd rather feel like I control my own destiny than just writing it off.

I can't stop because:
1. I don't have enough saved up. Still paying mortgages, contracted to about 30 years of commercial leases, lots of debt obligations
2. Too much invested and too much responsibility to businesses and partners
3. Work in O&G and we all know how stable those jobs are. I want to get out of that rat race

Pardon more judgement, but this is another red flag. To me you don't like these things because they interfere with work. We're social and physical animals, and it's been said in this thread already - no one regrets not working more.

Of course you can cry foul on this. It's hard to understand unless you have the same mindset or know some folks that think like this. I'm not saying I don't like those things because they interfere with work. I don't like those things because they don't interest me. People are different and have different hobbies. For some people, they have no interest in socializing and their hobby and enjoyment in life comes from being productive or they feel directionless or stressed.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

So I guess I'm the only observing Work Naked Day. Great.

For that reason I'm in. If you ever need a loan that is.

Thanks for the offer, I have too many loans already

[troutman]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0525084547.htm

Date:May 25, 2016
Source:University of Bergen

Summary:Workaholism frequently co-occurs with ADHD, OCD, anxiety, and depression, a large national Norwegian study shows. The study showed that workaholics scored higher on all the psychiatric symptoms than non-workaholics.

The researchers used seven valid criteria when drawing the line between addictive and non-addictive behaviour.
Experiences occurring over the past year are rated from 1 (never) to 5 (always):

• You think of how you can free up more time to work.
• You spend much more time working than initially intended.
• You work in order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness or depression.
• You have been told by others to cut down on work without listening to them.
• You become stressed if you are prohibited from working.
• You deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and/or exercise because of your work.
• You work so much that it has negatively influenced your health.

Scoring 4 (often) or 5 (always) on four or more criteria identify a workaholic.

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

How about the more hypothetical question?

It's hard to generalize these questions without a specific job to reference to, but we'll use % for "happiness level" with the jobs.

A job you're 75% happy with (you like what you do and enjoy work while you're there [but still live for the weekend], but there are jobs out there you'd enjoy more) and work 40 hours a week for and make "comfortable" money.

Or

A job you're ~40% happy with (you are still doing what you enjoy to a lesser extent, but the people you work with are somewhat difficult and the job is much less 'glamorous') and work 40 hours a week but make 1.5x the money (ie if first job was $50k / year, you make $75k / year).

Interested on hearing responses.

For me, I'd take the second job in a heartbeat. Id say I probably work to live, I don't enjoy or hate my job, but I work so I can have fun on the weekends and do what I want. So I'd take more pay for the same hours Aand less "glamour"

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by troutman

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0525084547.htm

Date:May 25, 2016
Source:University of Bergen

Summary:Workaholism frequently co-occurs with ADHD, OCD, anxiety, and depression, a large national Norwegian study shows. The study showed that workaholics scored higher on all the psychiatric symptoms than non-workaholics.

Working and keeping busy is also a form of self-medication.

I actually find that keeping busy is what cured the ADHD/OCD urges and the anxiety and depression experienced when I was in my teens.

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

There's nothing wrong with menial jobs being a stepping stone in someone's life. I have a friend who use to work at McDonalds. After a number of years she saved enough to buy a food truck. It was very successful. Now she has a reasturant, catering business and was recently on Chopped Canada. She has the same smile on her face now as she did when she worked at McDonalds. Oh, and her manager couldn't have that bad as she ended up marrying him.

People who think they are stuck in menial jobs are really just stuck in there own negative head space. Life is what you make of it.

This. I think everyone should work a minimum wage job, or a "menial" job atleast once in their lifetime. I believe it teaches the value of a dollar and just how hard you have to work to make a living. And I think that if you work a "lesse" job for a bit you will better appreciate when you do make a good wage and are happy with your job. You'll also appreciate the retail employees and fast food employees much more after working on of those jobs.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm not successful at all. I've probably spent over 6 figures into two businesses that are not paying back and I'm doing okay in the others. Like I said, it's kind of like gambling. There's an urge to try other things and make it back. It's probably not healthy but I'd rather feel like I control my own destiny than just writing it off.

I can't stop because:
1. I don't have enough saved up. Still paying mortgages, contracted to about 30 years of commercial leases, lots of debt obligations
2. Too much invested and too much responsibility to businesses and partners
3. Work in O&G and we all know how stable those jobs are. I want to get out of that rat race

My blood pressure and heart rate went up just reading this stuff.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

I'm not judging Hack&Lube (to each their own), but I'd be curious to hear what his motivations are. What keeps you going? What's the end goal? I watched an episode of Dragon's Den recently and a couple of guys had sunk $700,000 of their own money in trying to get a new company off the ground, and I just kept wondering "why bother?" That seems like a ton of work. If I had $700,000 to spare, I'd invest it, hopefully reap some nice rewards and chill. Some people are just wired differently, I guess.

What would you do when you "chill" though? I know a guy who retired from his full time job with a good chunk of change when he was 45. But for him, now his method of chilling is building cabinets and doing renovations and things 5 days a week. You get bored if you don't keep doing things. We don't need to classify or make a distinction between recreation and work if it's all the same thing in your head. It's all mental and how you are wired.

As far as putting $700K down for something, there's the higher the risk, the higher the reward. Some entrepreneurs are natural risk takers the same as way as adrenaline junkies will do high risk sports that can get them killed. And who knows, they may have done all the math and balanced all the risk and are putting down the $700K as a rational & calculated decision. This is how start-ups happen and I really feel that among millennials, that's kind of the zeitgeist. I know countless kids in university that are asking for advice because none of them want to work an 8-5 office job for the rest of their life and want to start their own things.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don't despise work-jerks. If that's how they want to spend their lives, who am I to criticize? However, when someone like that gets into a management position and expects others to adopt their approach to work, that's a problem.

Also, work-jerks should never have kids. I knew a woman like that who never spent any time with her family. When the divorce came, her husband wanted primary custody of the kids, but she wouldn't have it - what would people think? Now the kids are looked after by iPads when it's her week with the kids. Sad.

The one I worked with was in management. In spite towing the company line about leaving work at home, and not letting people stay late, etc. etc.. He created an atmosphere where you felt your job wasn't secure if you did not go over and above what was called of you.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Working and keeping busy is also a form of self-medication.

I actually find that keeping busy is what cured the ADHD/OCD urges and the anxiety and depression experienced when I was in my teens.

I used to have anxiety in school around exams and assignments. I still have "exam dreams" - showing up late for exams, not studying for exams, not finding the room for the exam.

The best way to manage my anxiety was to do the work as soon at it was assigned. If I waited to the last week or last night, I would have worried about it the whole time. To this day I do the same thing at work - I don't procrastinate - if I can do something right now, I do it.

Around the house, if I can get a few tasks done each day, I don't sweat jobs that can be done later, as long as I'm making constant progress.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

So I guess I'm the only observing Work Naked Day. Great.

Fine, I'll do it. But my clients are not going to be happy!!

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

He was recently in a wedding party with me at a destination wedding down in Mexico, and the groom had to beg him to leave NB and come be part of the wedding party. The most he would commit to was 3 days, and than it was back to work for him.

That makes him sound like a ####ty person who is very lucky to have friends.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm not successful at all. I've probably spent over 6 figures into two businesses that are not paying back and I'm doing okay in the others. Like I said, it's kind of like gambling. There's an urge to try other things and make it back. It's probably not healthy but I'd rather feel like I control my own destiny than just writing it off.

I can't stop because:
1. I don't have enough saved up. Still paying mortgages, contracted to about 30 years of commercial leases, lots of debt obligations
2. Too much invested and too much responsibility to businesses and partners
3. Work in O&G and we all know how stable those jobs are. I want to get out of that rat race

Again, I don't mean to be judgmental. I don't know you, so I'm basically trying to look objectively at a third party here.

At this point based on the above it seems like your "workaholic ism" has only dug you a hole. You can't relax, socialize, etc, because you have debts and need to work to pay them. However your work is leading you to take more risks. Again, from the outside this looks exactly like what you keep comparing it to: gambling.

Do you not see a bit of a problem with it?

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

What would you do when you "chill" though? I know a guy who retired from his full time job with a good chunk of change when he was 45. But for him, now his method of chilling is building cabinets and doing renovations and things 5 days a week. You get bored if you don't keep doing things. We don't need to classify or make a distinction between recreation and work if it's all the same thing in your head. It's all mental and how you are wired.

Here's the big difference. A successful retirement is a busy retirement; with that freedom you learn an instrument, work at a hobby, play a sport, travel, etc. You do what you want when you want, and sometimes it's a little boring and sometimes it's a little menial. But you do it for the days that are fun and the reward of finishing a project/seeing a new place, etc.

Nobody wants to do nothing. Between jobs I was bored as hell. The difference, it seems, is you have a compulsion to work but don't have the work-life balance. As far as I can tell from your explanations, when work isn't satisfying you just work more rather than explore other means. That's where I think there may be a problem.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

Some people are just wired differently, I guess.

Interesting thread/discussion. For me, a lot of the debate can be traced back to the above statement. I used to compare myself to "successful" people like CEO's and the people at the top of my profession. I eventually learned that many of these people worked insane hours and sacrificed a lot of things to get to where they are. At the risk of generalizing, they would rather work than sleep, spend time with family, etc. etc. etc. That's just how they are wired.

I'm not wired that way. I like sleep. I like vacations. I have no interest in having no life and no time for my family because I'm at the office (or otherwise working) 12+ hours a day plus weekends. Some people are able to do it (and do it well) but I don't happen to be one of them. That doesn't make me right or them wrong -- its up to each person and what "works" for them.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by dobbles

But once again, this philosophy would require hundreds of thousands if not millions of people to have hobbies that include: flipping burgers, cleaning hotel rooms, standing in the same place all day making widgets, etc.

Those jobs have to be filled by someone. So if we all get our dream job of athlete or poet or scuba dive instructor, who is left to fill the jobs people don't regularly dream of having?

I guess i'm glad most of you are happy to take less than your ideal in life - that leaves more space for the rest of us to get there. I didn't read the OP question as looking for thoughts on what actually happens to most of us.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Corral

I guess i'm glad most of you are happy to take less than your ideal in life - that leaves more space for the rest of us to get there. I didn't read the OP question as looking for thoughts on what actually happens to most of us.

You're ignoring the fact that what you describe as your ideal isn't necessarily what most other people see as theirs. To me, a situation like you described earlier sounds like the life of a workaholic which most people would find miserable:

To use your words a bit, the challenge is to find the work that doesn't lead you to separate your life into work and play (hobby, etc). Its all just work - make sure you enjoy it for what it is.

I know people who make a living off of things that many people do for free as hobbies (musicians, athletes, etc.) and without fail they still consider it hard work and they relish the breaks they get from it to relax or do other things. You can enjoy and derive immense satisfaction from your work and still not want to do it all the time or have it be your entire life.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Corral

I guess i'm glad most of you are happy to take less than your ideal in life - that leaves more space for the rest of us to get there. I didn't read the OP question as looking for thoughts on what actually happens to most of us.

I think you'd need to be wired pretty weird to enjoy working more than not working regardless of what it is.

For example I love hiking.

Now I could make money hiking by guiding - have to deal with people
Or blogging about it -- have to write about stuff and edit and proof read
Or review gear -- have to write about it and use non optimal gear
Or work at a national park -- have to deal with tourins
Or search and rescue -- pretty high risk and not full time

So none of these things would be as enjoyable for work as my hobby and would likely burn out the enjoyment of the hobby.

Could you give an example of a career that would fulfill the concept you are describing.