Man who beheaded fellow bus passenger wants to live on his own

[Snuffleupagus]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/05/1...res-an-example

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/05/1...res-an-example

...but experts!!

[DionTheDman]

Yeah, great job bringing up that example. What you don't hear about are the overwhelming number of other incidents where the system works and the patients go on to live normal, productive lives.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Yeah, great job bringing up that example. What you don't hear about are the overwhelming number of other incidents where the system works and the patients go on to live normal, productive lives.

Other incidents involving a violent murder? Lets hear about those ones that are apparently so plentiful.

I am amazed at how so may on this board are willing to ignore the gravity of the "slip up" of this individual. Sorry, but there is a difference in how that type of person should be treated.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by greyshep

Other incidents involving a violent murder? Lets hear about those ones that are apparently so plentiful.

I am amazed at how so may on this board are willing to ignore the gravity of the "slip up" of this individual. Sorry, but there is a difference in how that type of person should be treated.

http://www.mentalhealthcommission.ca...heet-ENG_0.pdf

[DionTheDman]

Objective: To examine criminal recidivism rates of a large sample of people found not
criminally responsible on account of mental disorder (NCRMD) in Canada’s 3 most
populous provinces, British Columbia, Ontario, and Quebec. Public concern about the
dangerousness of people found NCRMD has been fed by media attention on high-profile
cases. However, little research is available on the rate of reoffending among people found
NCRMD across Canadian provinces.
...
Results: Recidivism was relatively low after 3 years (17%). There were interprovincial
differences after controlling for number of prior criminal offences, diagnosis, seriousness
of the index offence, and supervision by the review boards. British Columbia (10%) and
Ontario (9%) were similar, whereas Quebec had almost twice the recidivism (22%). People
who had committed severe violent index offences were less likely to reoffend than those
who had committed less severe offences. People from the sample were less likely to
reoffend when under the purview of review boards, across all 3 provinces.
...
According to a seminal meta-analysis by Bonta et al,14
multiple factors are associated with the likelihood of
general and specifically violent recidivism of offenders with
mental disorders. These factors include criminal history,
psychiatric diagnosis, and nature of the index offence. Their
results also showed that people found not guilty by reason
of insanity (equivalent to the NCRMD verdict) were less
likely to reoffend than those who did not have this finding.
Moreover, people with mental illness who committed
a serious offence, such as homicide or sexual offences,
were less likely to reoffend than those who committed less
serious offences.
...
Among the 1768 people under
observation 3 years after the index verdict, 16.7% (n = 295)
had committed a new offence, regardless of whether they
were still under the purview of the RB. This rate went up to
20.3% (267/1319) 3 years following conditional discharge,
and to 21.8% (207/949) 3 years following absolute discharge.
In the 3 years following the index verdict, Ontario and British
Columbia had similar recidivism rates, but in Quebec the rate
was more than twice as high: 21.5% (229/1063) of people
from Quebec, 9.5% (21/221) of those from British Columbia,
and 9.3% (45/484) of those from Ontario had perpetrated
a new offence, regardless of their disposition status
(Figure 1A). People who had committed a severe offence
for their index NCRMD verdict had the lowest recidivism
rates (Figure 1B) of all groups: 3 years following the index
offence, only 6.0% (10/159) committed a new offence of
any kind. The recidivism rate was higher among people
who committed a less severe index offence against a person
(15.3%; /151/988) or people who committed index offences
that were not against a person (21.6%; 134/621).
The recidivism rate when only reoffences against a person
not classified as severe were considered (8.8% after 3 years;
154/1755) was similar to the recidivism rate when only
reoffences that were not against a person were considered
(10.5% after 3 years; 186/1765; Figure 1C). Almost
one-third (29%) of these offences against a person involved
threats. The recidivism rate for a severe violent offence
within 3 years was extremely low: 0.6% (9/1611).

Derp derp.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/05/1...res-an-example

So, in order to argue against Vince Li, the best they could do was bring up a murder in 1985 perpetrated by a 15 year old - who was released four months after being found not criminally responsible? He wasn't even schizophrenic.

If anything that Sun article should alleviate any fears if that's the best parallel they can draw in their fear mongering.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...oard-1.3459159

Ten years ago, a man whom CBC News is calling Bill stabbed a young woman while in the grip of schizophrenia.

"That whole afternoon or evening is just a blur to me," he said.

"I was sick, I wasn't in my right mind. It wasn't something I wanted to do and it isn't something I'm glad I did. It's something I have a great lot of regret about."

Like Li, Bill was found not criminally responsible.

He spent nine years in a forensic hospital in Brockville, Ont.

After intensive counselling and following the right course of medication, he was given a second chance. First, he moved to a group home and then a regular apartment, all the while under conditions like a curfew, and regular monitoring.

More than one year ago, Bill got an absolute discharge and is now living on his own in the community.

"I don't think I would do it again, but I'm just taking it one day at a time," he said. "It's been less of a challenge lately. As I get better, as I put myself back together, it gets easier.

There's a lot more people like "Bill" than there are Chaulk...

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Sure you did. You said if schizophrenics are not criminally responsible, then why aren't drug addicts afforded the same courtesy. Look. Right here....

You're suggesting addiction issues and schizophrenia are the same thing. Yeah. We're totally done here.

I didn't say that at all. You are completely lacking objectivity and actually inventing stuff.

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That implies that mental illness is mental illness is mental illness and the people with these conditions all have the same symptoms and behaviors and cognitive functioning. And that's not correct.

I am no expert on the subject and am actually not sure why other people with different mental illness who did not chop someone's head off don't get the same deal as this guy.

Thankfully, other people that can actually engage in a discussion stepped in and added value. You simply virtue call hoping for a hug.

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

So yeah. Hockey and schizophrenia are also a bit different. There are no special degrees and only minor training involved when opining on hockey. I agree that people have added great information and opinions. And some have added incorrect opinions born from nothing more than a passing knowledge of this case that contradict people who have decades of training and life times of experience. Just because it's an opinion doesn't make it correct. And just because doctors have made mistakes in the past doesn't make a total lack of education and experience a better place to ground an opinion. If you philosophically believe mentally ill people deserve to be punished the same as people of sound mind then have at it. That's a valid proposal. Just don't tell me that addressing childhood trauma is a valid course of treatment for schizophrenia, or that medication never works, or drug addicts deserve the same mental status assessment as schizophrenics. All fake news.

Fake news is you attributing a bunch of stuff to me, who didn't say it. Go get a hug or something.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

So would you be in favour of monitoring anyone who has done bathsalts?

Snip

And again, you've presented no evidence to suggest that he would go off his medication once monitoring ends.

On the first point- you were the one who brought up bath salts, so please don't try to put words in my mouth.

On the second point- I would say the onus is on the person being asked to be removed from monitoring that he would not go off his medication- not the other way around. The problem is there really only one way to be absolutely sure that doesn't happen- have him check in regularly.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Yeah, great job bringing up that example. What you don't hear about are the overwhelming number of other incidents where the system works and the patients go on to live normal, productive lives.

seriously man, name even one of your overwhelming number of other incidents even similar to this? I have never heard of someone set free 8 years after a vicious crazy murder. or are you saying the system works so well they don't bother making it public?

I'm no expert on the subject and don't care to be but every fiber in my body says I couldn't trust anyone who cut off someones head or trust the word some crazy doctor who would claim he's cured and safe for society.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

seriously man, name even one of your overwhelming number of other incidents even similar to this? I have never heard of someone set free 8 years after a vicious crazy murder. or are you saying the system works so well they don't bother making it public?

I'm no expert on the subject and don't care to be but every fiber in my body says I couldn't trust anyone who cut off someones head or trust the word some crazy doctor who would claim he's cured and safe for society.

You don't claim to be an expect and yet you want to call the psychiatrists treating him as crazy?

I guess you think they got their degrees and license to practice out of a few crackerjack boxes

[GGG]

For those who favour an absolute discharge.


Do you believe that Vincent Li should have the right to choose whether he takes anti psychotic medication? Not will he or won't he make that choice, Just should society give him the right to make that choice.

[EldrickOnIce]

^ there is unobtrusive, simple electronic monitoring systems available. They do not specifically insure a patient takes the medication (versus flushing it or whatever) but does insure it is used in some way.
OR suggested compliance, even when a patient is on board with treatment, is not an issue, but evidence points otherwise. Compliance is one of the biggest issues in any medicication treatment.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

There's a lot more people like "Bill" than there are Chaulk...

Well that's super reassuring, I'm glad 'Bill' doesn't think he will violently stab another innocent woman to death

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

To me, that's getting akin to the argument made everytime we lose our freedoms. "If you have nothing to hide, you won't mind being searched. If you don't want to be searched, clearly you have something to hide" The onus should be the opposite "if you want to search me, you should be able to reasonably prove you have cause to do so."

Except the last time Li wasn't 'searched' (or being monitored for meds) he cut a random guys head off and ate it, that sure sounds like reasonable proof to 'search' this guy the next time and the next time for the rest of his life.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Swarly

Well that's super reassuring, I'm glad 'Bill' doesn't think he will violently stab another innocent woman to death

You mean exactly like how you think you won't stab anyone?

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

seriously man, name even one of your overwhelming number of other incidents even similar to this? I have never heard of someone set free 8 years after a vicious crazy murder. or are you saying the system works so well they don't bother making it public?

I'm no expert on the subject and don't care to be but every fiber in my body says I couldn't trust anyone who cut off someones head or trust the word some crazy doctor who would claim he's cured and safe for society.

My last post was literally about recidivism following violent crime. Is this one of those "but why male models" situations?

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Swarly

Except the last time Li wasn't 'searched' (or being monitored for meds) he cut a random guys head off and ate it, that sure sounds like reasonable proof to 'search' this guy the next time and the next time for the rest of his life.

He was undiagnosed at the time. He didn't even know he was sick. It's not like he just decided to stop taking his medication.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You mean exactly like how you think you won't stab anyone?

If asked if I will be stabbing someone I don't answer the same as when asked if I'm getting loaded for superbowl, "I don't think I will...". I know I'm not stabbing anyone today, I can say that with certainty. 'Bill' is unable to.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Swarly

If asked if I will be stabbing someone I don't answer the same as when asked if I'm getting loaded for superbowl, "I don't think I will...". I know I'm not stabbing anyone today, I can say that with certainty. 'Bill' is unable to.

You can certainly say you won't stab someone?

You clearly are not aware that mental illnesses, like Schizophrenia that Bill and Li suffered, can manifest at any time throughout your life then. You have a far less understanding of mental health than Bill.

To say that you won't be stabbing someone even in the short-term, shows a general lack of understanding of mental health. If at noon today, God told you that your coworker was an alien out to steal your soul, and the belief that you have that you are "immune" to mental illness would be a hindrance and a potential danger as you don't seek help. This is a reason that stigmatizing mental health is an issue. Of course it's incredibly unlikely you would.

But with people like Bill, they have probably been repeatedly told that anything can happen and not to assume or ignore anything.

If Bill were to say "there's absolutely no way I will relapse and be a danger" that is actually far more dangerous than him saying "I believe I won't relapse, but I realize there's a chance." This gives him the ability to recognize the early warning signs, and the realization that (even if incredibly slim) he could pose a threat. This would have been hammered into him for the last decade.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You can certainly say you won't stab someone?

You clearly are not aware that mental illnesses, like Schizophrenia that Bill and Li suffered, can manifest at any time throughout your life then. You have a far less understanding of mental health than Bill.

To say that you won't be stabbing someone even in the short-term, shows a general lack of understanding of mental health. If at noon today, God told you that your coworker was an alien out to steal your soul, and the belief that you have that you are "immune" to mental illness would be a hindrance and a potential danger as you don't seek help. This is a reason that stigmatizing mental health is an issue. Of course it's incredibly unlikely you would.

But with people like Bill, they have probably been repeatedly told that anything can happen and not to assume or ignore anything.

If Bill were to say "there's absolutely no way I will relapse and be a danger" that is actually far more dangerous than him saying "I believe I won't relapse, but I realize there's a chance." This gives him the ability to recognize the early warning signs, and the realization that (even if incredibly slim) he could pose a threat. This would have been hammered into him for the last decade.

Wow. I cannot believe I just read that.

So you're telling us that we are all ticking time bombs and will lash out violently if all of a sudden a voice starts telling us to knife the guy next to us?

Good to know.