American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS (Archive)

[Thunderball]

This is hamhanded and reckless. Its way too provocative to include green card holders and likely unconstitutional.

I could understand (but not necessarily support) limiting future immigration/refugee numbers from certain areas of the world quietly if there is concern of religious/demographic strife within the US, but by essentially treating green card holders as enemy aliens, the line is being crossed.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't know if that's necessarily true. If you're a citizen you're automatically allowed entry to the country. You can be detained if you're suspected of committing a crime, but they cannot turn you away for any reason. You either have to be charged or let into the country. That right isn't afforded to permanent residents. Green card holders can be refused entry into the US for various reasons. Now whether or not this one ends up being legal is another matter, I suspect it's not. But technically they don't have the same rights as citizens.

We don't?

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/aft...anent-resident

As a permanent resident (green card holder), you have the right to:

-Live permanently in the United States provided you do not commit any actions that would make you removable under immigration law

-Work in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing. (Please note that some jobs will be limited to U.S. citizens for security reasons)

-Be protected by all laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions

"Permitted you don't commit any actions that would make you removable under immigration law" is normally viewed to regard things like commiting felonies, not traveling abroad and being denied entry due to your country of citizenship.

There are already lawsuits filed and I imagine this will be struck down as unconstitutional. One of the Iraqi men detained has now been allowed entry. Don will need to create a new immigration system before he can arbitrarily block legal residents from the country.

[CaptainCrunch]

[peter12]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

But really it's the suburban hicks that voted for him because of jobs, and really, aside from the Republicans fearmongering of Muslims, how much do they know about global terrorism.
How exactly does terrorism effect them, in their everday lives?

Post-materialists have completely misjudged the importance of national identity and citizenship.

The fear of radical Islamic terrorism is not a fear of a direct threat, but more a common-sensical understanding that acquiesence to that threat comprises a weakening of the American moral hegemony, and the importance of that hegemony to the flourishing of human life.

If you cannot understand the benefits of living as a rig pig Butte, Montana over living as a prince in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, then you won't understand that fear.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In a cynical move to provide security to the United States and defend it against Radical Islam, Trump is giving them exactly what they want. The US, the great Satan that hates all of Islam and want to kill us all.

ISIS was pretty much on the ropes, but I bet their recruitment numbers go through the roof with America's actions and the rise of nationalism in Europe.

While the world was not exactly what I call peaceful or stable or even close to it. These moves by the American Government are equivalent to me throwing gasoline on a pile of gunpowder, then shaking a jar of nitroglycerine and throwing it on the mess.

The drone war that the US is currently undertaking has more impact on ISIS recruitment numbers than a free movement ban will ever have.

[sureLoss]

Ban also applies to dual citizenships according to the state department.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-vi...28654?mod=e2tw

Meaning if you hold both Canadian and Iranian passports for example, you will be denied entry into the United States trying to enter the US with a Canadian passport

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

But really it's the suburban hicks that voted for him because of jobs, and really, aside from the Republicans fearmongering of Muslims, how much do they know about global terrorism.
How exactly does terrorism effect them, in their everday lives?

Suburban hicks???

I do think though that the rural people in middle America are the most terrified of terrorism and probably the least likely people on earth to ever be affected.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by peter12

The fear of radical Islamic terrorism is not a fear of a direct threat, but more a common-sensical understanding that acquiesence to that threat comprises a weakening of the American moral hegemony, and the importance of that hegemony to the flourishing of human life.

Then why does every republican politician that gets on tv, to defend Trumps actions start out with 9/11 and then edge into San Bernadino, Pulse night club, etc. etc.?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Then why does every republican can politician that gets on tv, to defend Trumps actions start out with 9/11 and then edge into San Bernadino, Pulse night club, etc. etc.?

Source?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Ban also applies to dual citizenships according to the state department.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-vi...28654?mod=e2tw

Meaning if you hold both Canadian and Iranian passports for example, you will be denied entry into the United States trying to enter the US with a Canadian passport

the ban is only for 90 days though. So if your trip is in May you're good to go!

[DuffMan]

Here's an interesting stat.
2005-2015

302,000 - Americans killed by gun violence
71 - Americans killed by domestic terror

Gun violence archive.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

The drone war that the US is currently undertaking has more impact on ISIS recruitment numbers than a free movement ban will ever have.

Except that ISIS recruitment numbers have dropped sharply over the last couple of years, part of it because ISIS is fighting a losing battle, part of it because its become more difficult for foreigners to travel to ISIS held territories.

But this is a narrative that will play right into their hands, especially in terms of local recruitment.

The narrative of the travel ban is huge, see America hates Muslims, they can also point to this being the first major Muslim based election promise that he's kept, and what was the other one? That he would go over and bomb the crap out of them. So now they have the narrative that the Americans and Trump are going to come over here and attack us and bomb us in greater numbers then even Bush and Obama did. So you need to join us to protect your families and your homes and to take the war to America.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Here's an interesting stat.
2005-2015

302,000 - Americans killed by gun violence
71 - Americans killed by domestic terror

Gun violence archive.

Trump is also on record saying that if Chicago doesn't clean up its' gun crime, sounds like he's going to roll in the feds and (I presume?) treat it like a warzone I think, although he wasn't very specific. So looks like that is a concern for him too.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

We don't?

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/aft...anent-resident



"Permitted you don't commit any actions that would make you removable under immigration law" is normally viewed to regard things like commiting felonies, not traveling abroad and being denied entry due to your country of citizenship.

There are already lawsuits filed and I imagine this will be struck down as unconstitutional. One of the Iraqi men detained has now been allowed entry. Don will need to create a new immigration system before he can arbitrarily block legal residents from the country.

In a word, no. Permanent residents don't have the same rights as citizens because they can be found inadmissible to the country for various reasons and that can't happen when you're a citizen.

If you're out of the US for too long or are found to have certain communicable diseases they can refuse you re-entry, that certainly can't happen to a citizen. Or if you're guilty of one of a number of crimes (most are serious, but things like drug possession and prostitution are included) you can also be refused entry. Like I said, this specific example will probably be found to be illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that green card holders have fewer rights than citizens.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

the ban is only for 90 days though. So if your trip is in May you're good to go!

Who would even want to visit the states right now?

My fear now is being mistaken as an American when I travel abroad. Not that I think anything bad would happen, it would just be too humiliating. Anything more subtle than a Canadian flag patch on my backpack?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by opendoor

In a word, no. Permanent residents don't have the same rights as citizens because they can be found inadmissible to the country for various reasons and that can't happen when you're a citizen.

If you're out of the US for too long or are found to have certain communicable diseases they can refuse you re-entry, that certainly can't happen to a citizen. Or if you're guilty of one of a number of crimes (most are serious, but things like drug possession and prostitution are included) you can also be refused entry. Like I said, this specific example will probably be found to be illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that green card holders have fewer rights than citizens.

Interesting. Between the info from the government and the 14th amendment I'd always been taught differently. The points you made are all addressed by the first bullet point on the .Gov site.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

the ban is only for 90 days though. So if your trip is in May you're good to go!

The 90 days is only a place holder.

According to the order, the Secretary of State and Homeland Security and National Security Advisor have 30 days to provide Trump a list of countries that in their opinion don't share enough information with USA to determine if their citizens are threats.

Then those countries have 60 days to meet the USA's standard of information sharing. If they don't, then their citizens will be barred from entering the USA until they comply.

[Ozy_Flame]

Unbelievable. This ban as it stands wouldn't have prevented the 9/11, Boston Marathon, San Bernadino or Fort Hood attacks based on who committed them.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Americans voted for jobs. That's been clear for awhile now. That said I don't think the majority of Americans want this moron who may try to give them jobs destroying their global reputation which he will do and fast.

The majority of Americans have an incredibly limited concept of the world outside their borders. Only a small minority would be list global reputation as a key concern.

[Minnie]

Congrats on electing the biggest terrorist to your highest public office, USA.