3 years ago we all said a 5 year rebuild would be fine.

[Dr. Doom]

Yes we all said that 5 years ago...

Then a visit with the second round of the playoffs happened. And everyone showed how good they can be - now.

The issue comes where its been a downhill slide ever since and that is top-to-botton responsibility GM, coach, players...

We are showing signs of going in a very bad developmental direction. 5 years is an invisible target, and one would think that by now we are showing more sign of progression not the opposite.

Throw in GM/coach contractual uncertainty and you have a real mixed bag...

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's just recency bias and "oh god why can't we score" frustration.

Bennett will be fine. Gaudreau will still be awesome. Monahan... is what he is, which is goals and little else. But hey, goals are valuable, they're hard to come by. Meanwhile, once they lose Wideman and Engelland (which will happen at the latest this summer), the team will be in position to sign one UFA and ice the best blue line in the league. You've got a good 2nd line in 3M, all you really need at that point is a real top line RW and league average goaltending.

No, these things aren't easy to get. But the holes are pretty obvious, and as a result so is the path forward.

This, combined with the fact the team north of here is finally turning it on and just whipped us, so it's got our fans doing the competitive thing and not liking seeing them pass us as the better team for the time being. That rivalry is finally coming back, and people are comparing us to them too much and not liking what they see. It's adding an extra level of urgency and frustration.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's just recency bias and "oh god why can't we score" frustration.

Bennett will be fine. Gaudreau will still be awesome. Monahan... is what he is, which is goals and little else. But hey, goals are valuable, they're hard to come by. Meanwhile, once they lose Wideman and Engelland (which will happen at the latest this summer), the team will be in position to sign one UFA and ice the best blue line in the league. You've got a good 2nd line in 3M, all you really need at that point is a real top line RW and league average goaltending.

No, these things aren't easy to get. But the holes are pretty obvious, and as a result so is the path forward.

But the Flames can't scout at the pro level. They sign guys like Brouwer, Wideman, Engelland, Bollig, Raymond, Setoguchi, Versteeg, etc. All these small potato players who never make an impact. Do you really trust these scouts to find the best player in free agency?

Also, a team should never build from free agency. Either your paying an excessive % of your cap towards a real good player, or your getting the players who the Flames have signed over the years. I hope the Flames make trades if anything. Strome, Nyquist, Killhorn, Colin Wilson, Niederreiter, etc. over any of the 5million+ free agents.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The impacts of bad moves can literally cost a franchise for 10 years and beyond.
I don't know how that can even be disputed.
So what Sutter did is still impacting the state of the organization. The refusal to rebuild earlier is costing the organization. Just trace the assets. They tell a clear tale of asset erosion.

Sorry but I can't get myself to agree that Sutter set the organization back 10 years. Perhaps I am defensive of Sutter. So be it, as he was responsible for the most entertaining and exciting hockey I have witnessed as a fan of this club since the very early 90's. He did far more good than anyone on the current management team has so far.

I still can't think of an example at any sport where a championship team was built by trading away star players at their peak value for picks and prospects, The Cowboys and Hershel Walker is the closest I can come up with.

But laying the problems at the feet of a guy that left 6 years ago feels more like axe grinding to me.

Enough about Sutter, let's focus on the current team. If asset erosion is the downfall of franchises, what do you propose the Flames do with Giordano and Brouwer? Two assets that are eroding as we speak. Why wasn't Hudler dealt after his career season instead of waiting until the deadline when his value had eroded?

Treliving has auctioned away pending UFA's at a point where the season is lost. Every team in the league does that. Glencross is the exception, but also remember they tried to re-sign him.

[JiriHrdina]

I didn't say trade them away at peak value. But you can't wait for them to have no value. Or more accurately - you can't wait for ALL of them to have ZERO value. You can keep some of them to compete and mentor, but you have to balance short-term and long-term needs. It isn't binary.

And no - not every team auctions pending UFAs when the season was lost. The Flames refused to do that for years.

Moreover, Treliving did it even when his team was in and MADE the playoffs (Glencross).

It can feel like axe grinding to you but if you can't see the long-term implications of bad moves I can't help you and it is pointless to continue to discuss things.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just don't get the need to think everything is broken during a losing streak. Four straight games have sucked, there is little debate on that topic. But now the current players suck, the coach sucks, the GM sucks, the old GM sucks, the team president sucks, the prospect base has failed ...

it's too much.

When the Flames went 9-1-1 I was even keeled enough to know that they were cashing in on some pretty solid bounces. They were playing well, but they couldn't sustain that.

Now they are getting every conceivable bounce against them and it's broken their spirit.

That's the issue to me ... a dry spell where the team learns something about manning up. Not Stajan and Engelland, but the younger core. It happens every year to almost every team.

It's a good hockey team, with a coach that I'm coming around to. Things will be fine. I had them at a bubble team this year, guess what that's exactly what they are. It's a transitional season for young core players to get better and some bad contracts to come off the books.

I didn't necessarily envision the bubble team arriving here by looking awful then unbeatable, then average and then terrible but they've pretty much done what I expected.

I can't argue with fan passion, but it does make me shake my head sometimes.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's a good hockey team, with a coach that I'm coming around to. Things will be fine. I had them at a bubble team this year, guess what that's exactly what they are. It's a transitional season for young core players to get better and some bad contracts to come off the books.

I didn't necessarily envision the bubble team arriving here by looking awful then unbeatable, then average and then terrible but they've pretty much done what I expected.

They're a bubble team because of an uncharacteristically weak Western Conference.

This record last year has them in 10th in the conference, and only that high because of more games played. On a ppg basis, they're 13th, with only last year's Flames team (a whole 2 games behind) and the Oilers having worse records.

Two seasons ago, a .500 record has them tied for 12th in the conference.

If you had them as a bubble team based on historic measurements, then this team as a whole must be under-performing, with most key players under-performing individually. But I'm guessing the coach with absolutely no track record of success still gets a pass?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Mike F

They're a bubble team because of an uncharacteristically weak Western Conference.

This record last year has them in 10th in the conference, and only that high because of more games played. On a ppg basis, they're 13th, with only last year's Flames team (a whole 2 games behind) and the Oilers having worse records.

Two seasons ago, a .500 record has them tied for 12th in the conference.

If you had them as a bubble team based on historic measurements, then this team as a whole must be under-performing, with most key players under-performing individually. But I'm guessing the coach with absolutely no track record of success still gets a pass?

You can't discount this year as being a bubble team due to a weak Western conference, and not also discount our playoff season 2 years ago due to a weak Western conference and even more specifically a very weak Pacific division.

I don't disagree with you, this is a playoff bubble team because of the West, and would not be that in the east. Does that mean things are worse then we expected? I'd say if anyone had expectations of the playoffs this year and at this point in the teams development, it likely factored in the weak conference, as it's been weak for a few years now. I know when I go down the list of teams in the NHL, even with them playing up to potential I didn't have this group as one of the best 16 teams in the NHL this year.

[MikeMc]

Originally Posted by J79

Yikes.

I'm not sure if I should be mad or just, let's say, astonished by your post.
Either way, it's one of the most stupid things I've ever read.

I'm assuming you are in fact a season ticket holder?
Did someone forced you to be a STH? Did the Flames organization promised you a Stanley Cup when you signed up?

I'm also assuming you're not living in a country where you have to get up at 3 or 4 a.m. to watch a Flames game... on television or internet. And that's only for the last couple of years.
Prior to that you could only listen to the games and watch a 4 minute higlight clip of the game on the internet.

I'm also assuming you never lost a job because you thought it was more important to listen to Peter Maher in the middle of the night during the '04 cup run, than actually be fit for work.

I'm also assuming you never had to end a relationship because the lady thought the Calgary Flames where more important to you than she was.
(them, she had a smokin' hot body... such a bitch though)

I'm also assuming you never had to cancel you first ever trip to Calgary because of a NHL lockout.... knowing full well it was probably the last chance to be able to see Kipper and Iggy play for the Flames.

I never signed up for garbage hockey either when I, radonmly, chose to support the Calgary Flames almost 23 years ago, but never ever did I blame the Flames for the choices I made.

Man, I must be real tough being a Calgary Flames season ticket holder!

Weird post man. Awesome that you love the Flames but come on. You win, you're the biggest fan who dealt with the most crap due to your love and support. Congrats.

If I'm a season ticket holder who put down significant cash you're damn right I'd be supremely disappointed with with this team and my purchase right now (justifiably so). It's a business, I bought a product and that product absolutely sucks right now.

[Flash Walken]

Buying seasons tickets is like getting a dog. You have made a commitment to eventual sadness and disappointed and you need to enjoy the good while it lasts.

Is there anything more arrogant than someone buying seasons tickets to a team that has been awful for the vast majority of the last quarter century and then complaining about the team's performance?

Get over yourselves. If you don't want the benefit of priority tickets when the team is good then give up your tickets when the team is bad.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Buying seasons tickets is like getting a dog. You have made a commitment to eventual sadness and disappointed and you need to enjoy the good while it lasts.

Is there anything more arrogant than someone buying seasons tickets to a team that has been awful for the vast majority of the last quarter century and then complaining about the team's performance?

Get over yourselves. If you don't want the benefit of priority tickets when the team is good then give up your tickets when the team is bad.

That's a little harsh, no? Making a significant financial commitment to the team kind of gives people the right to complain or question the team's direction.

I don't think anyone buys tickets fully assuming the team will suck. Maybe its the "when the team is good" part of your post I would object to. As you point out, if you bought season tickets 25 years ago you have been extremely patient.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

I can remember when we all talked. We all had "suffered" so much, with the seasons of pain and near misses. We all agreed it was the time to move certain players, get picks and enter the re-draft. We agreed it would be a "process" we said that would be fine. Now we are 3/4 years in, and we are not winning cups...we may not be a playoff team..we may not even be good..

But the change is happening...I think it's for the better..we may not be contenders yet...but we are probably on our way..we have players to be excited about...and young players growing..


I say... stay the course and keep building! I feel we are more than halfway there!

GFG!!!!!

Winning cups let alone winning one cup and within within a 5 year rebuild - c'mon!!! This is absolutely unrealistic expectation. I'm sure winning a championship in the minors can be justified since every team goes through new players quite often, but this is the NHL!

Sheesh, for all we know, it may take as long as the Oilers or the Islanders to build up a team or longer to go to the cup or even make it to the playoffs consistently. It's not like the Flames have consecutive multi-year 1st overall picks with multiple consecutive generational elite players like Malkin and Crosby.

I'm actually expecting the Flames to go through another GM or 2 and some more coaches and players before this whole rebuild finally takes shape where the team becomes a cup contender rather than just trying to be a mediocre team. Even if they make the first round of playoff is a big nice surprise. To make it pass the first round would make my year right now, but let's be realistic. But keep dreaming for that day the Flames win that cup again. It'll happen one day (I really hope).

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

three years ago, a five year rebuild meant adding Nathan MacKinnon, Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel, or Auston Matthews.

If only the Flames management and coaching staff were smart enough to do what Edmonton, Colorado, and Buffalo did before the change to the lottery system. I think Feaster did go for it, but Hartley didn't buy into it. That is why when you're rebuilding the team and you have the opportunity to improve based on holes in the system, you take advantage of it rather than have a short spurt of glory that leads nowhere. Sure, it's an awesome surprise for that moment in time, but it sure bit the Flames hard in the arse. Hey, at least we now have Gaudreau and Tkachuk!

[MikeMc]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Buying seasons tickets is like getting a dog. You have made a commitment to eventual sadness and disappointed and you need to enjoy the good while it lasts.

Is there anything more arrogant than someone buying seasons tickets to a team that has been awful for the vast majority of the last quarter century and then complaining about the team's performance?

Get over yourselves. If you don't want the benefit of priority tickets when the team is good then give up your tickets when the team is bad.

Whatever dude, it'd be pissed if i had season tickets and players were seemingly this non-invested in doing work/winning/putting out a decent product over certain stretches this year.

Yes the slide will pass and I'm sure some good games will be held at the dome for the remainder of this season but it's their right as season ticket holders to bitch and moan.

Telling ticket holders to 'get over themselves' seems mighty arrogant BTW.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That's a little harsh, no? Making a significant financial commitment to the team kind of gives people the right to complain or question the team's direction.

I don't think anyone buys tickets fully assuming the team will suck. Maybe its the "when the team is good" part of your post I would object to. As you point out, if you bought season tickets 25 years ago you have been extremely patient.

Pretty sure making a significant financial commitment(myself included) only entitles you to being present when the team plays at homd and nothing else. Season tickets arent shares in a company

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Buying seasons tickets is like getting a dog. You have made a commitment to eventual sadness and disappointed and you need to enjoy the good while it lasts.

Is there anything more arrogant than someone buying seasons tickets to a team that has been awful for the vast majority of the last quarter century and then complaining about the team's performance?

Get over yourselves. If you don't want the benefit of priority tickets when the team is good then give up your tickets when the team is bad.

This is a joke of a post. The Flames haven't been very good for the last 25 years doesn't allow someone who pays thousands of dollars to watch them complain about the team?

I guess I am an arrogant prick since I shelled out the dough for season tickets and am disappointed a team with so much young talent is sucking.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but are we now debating the value of Tier 1 vs. Tier 2 fans? Seems like we're about to head there.

[stone hands]

Being a sth doesn't make you an arrogant prick, but thinking that you should have a say because you voluntarily pay to go watch the games live does

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mike F

They're a bubble team because of an uncharacteristically weak Western Conference.

This record last year has them in 10th in the conference, and only that high because of more games played. On a ppg basis, they're 13th, with only last year's Flames team (a whole 2 games behind) and the Oilers having worse records.

Two seasons ago, a .500 record has them tied for 12th in the conference.

If you had them as a bubble team based on historic measurements, then this team as a whole must be under-performing, with most key players under-performing individually. But I'm guessing the coach with absolutely no track record of success still gets a pass?

Actually I think I'm capable of defining what a bubble team is for me on my own.

A team between the new world .500 and a playoff spot is a bubble team in my mind, and that's what they are.

At least for a few more hours!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Pretty sure making a significant financial commitment(myself included) only entitles you to being present when the team plays at homd and nothing else. Season tickets arent shares in a company

Being a customer doesn't entitle you to a point of view on the quality of the product? Of course it does. It doesn't mean you run the company but you don't think successful companies make an attempt to understand what their customers want? I don't understand what you are arguing. I would love for Brian Burke to come out and repeat your first sentence.