American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS (Archive)

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why would he? He was elected.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these protester's participation would have been more effective had it been at voting booths on election day rather than in the streets two months later.

It seems to me that they're protesting things that Trump has said in the past, and while thats fair enough, it would have made more sense to hold him to his statements prior to electing him.

Donald Trump: POTUS...hasnt done anything yet.

And that's definitely a fair limb to go out on, but I'd wager that anyone willing to actually march in the streets did actually vote. But you are right -- if they didn't vote, this is kind of on them.

Anyway, what's wrong with protesting what someone said in the past? After all, the guy did brag about sexually assaulting women in the past. If the Prime Minister, as an adult, made jokes about raping white men, I'd be in the streets too, and I've never been to a protest in my life.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Azure

The iPhone is cheaper in labor hours because Foxconn and China have made an agreement to treat their workers like slaves who work, sleep and basically just LIVE to make the iPhone. The factory is setup in such a way that a worker at the iPhone plant has no other life than doing just that.

Obviously that won't happen in North America. And apparently we are okay with that because we love giving Apple billions upon billions in profit every year to keep the labor cost of the iPhone down.

Their workers are also more productive per hour worked. But yes the exportation of slavery to a place where we can't see it and they can't rebel is responsible for a good chunk of what we consume.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these protester's participation would have been more effective had it been at voting booths on election day rather than in the streets two months later.

Protesting is part of democracy too. And they are welcome to do it on any day as they please.

To be honest, I think doing it on his first day as President resonates far more than getting clouded in the activity of all the campaign sensationalism going on.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

There are two kind of connected points that I wanted to bring up, after all the "disconnected elite" accusations after this election. Here is my question--you have a huge group of people, these rust belt former steel workers/coal miners, other blue collar workers from the rust belt and midwest, and yes, they're worried for their jobs and wellbeings. They want manufacturing jobs back that were eaten up by the move of progress and automation. They want coal jobs back that were eaten up by cheaper/safer forms of energy that we're unlikely to regress back to.

Agree with this premise completely.

But they're also terrified of the country suddenly becoming far more black, more brown, more Asian, more Latino, more gay, more trans, etc. They're afraid of change that is completely inevitable.

These people are worried, and I get that they're worried. But by the same token, they refuse to see what is plainly in front of them. Progress moves forward. America is getting less and less white and no government can legislate against that diversity.

Their best call is to broaden their horizons--realize that these incoming immigrants and refugees have the same concerns, that they just want to put food on the table for their families and have job security. To realize that gay Americans just want to marry the person they love the same as anyone else. That these people who are different from them aren't out to get them.

These people consistently vote against their own best interests, and attempting to persuade them with facts and logic and statistics just puts their guard up against the "elites." Insulting them just makes them even more rigid.

Calm reasoning doesn't work. Shaming doesn't work. Discussion doesn't work.

So what is the answer? How do you respond to people who will actively vote against their own best interests and flat out refuse any kind of dissension, no matter how valid and fact-based it is?

I'm not attempting to argue, this is an honest request, because I am absolutely surrounded by people exactly like this and I want to effect some kind of change, but I honestly have no idea how we're supposed to handle this.

This is where you start to lose me. While I can agree that there is a portion of the Republican party which are racist, homophobic and xenophobic, you cannot lump these people together as one homogeneous group. I don't think that most Trump supporters are all that concerned about LGBT issues or see other issues (like the economy) as much more important. I think that sort of stuff only appeals to certain segments of the party.

You're in PA - you should see some of this, but the reason some people think illegal immigration and refugees are a big issue is because they think they are losing jobs because of it. As an unemployed worker, you see illegal immigrants coming across the border, you look at it and see one more person that you have to compete with for that job. And he can probably do it cheaper than you. Then the government talks about amnesty for these people and all you can think about is what the hell are they doing to help me when I can't find work?

Then you see them talk about refugees from Syria. Knowing that when they come over they are going to be placed in subsidized housing, given English language training, opportunities to find work. Again, these people think about all that money used on refugees that could be going to help Americans find work while they are struggling to pay their power bill.

Then they see news stories about how some of these immigrants and refugees have chosen not to integrate, involve themselves with extremism and that continues to piss them off further because again they squandered the opportunity to live in America and wasted money doing it, while they themselves are struggling day to day to get by. You then see that Obama won't call a spade a spade by referencing Islamic terrorism, but Trump will, he won't take any of that ****.

Then only one candidate decides to appeal to them directly by speaking about renegotiating unfair trade deals which caused their factories to close. Talks about limiting H-1B visas because they feel they are bringing in foreign professionals to work for cheaper (speaks to American exceptionalism). While the other barely campaigns in your state. Maybe some people do think the jobs will come back, but others look at other protected Industries (like Agriculture) and sees them doing well and probably thinks that if we did reduce free trade, some of the jobs would come back.

Then you come by and call them a racist and they get their backs up. Not once did they really even think about race when working through the above equation and they shut you out completely. Rightly or wrongly they are looking out for themselves and trying to get by. They've seen wages stagnate over the last 40-50 years and think things are getting worse.

That success is not a zero sum game in this country. They need help with access to information, they live in communities that need better infrastructure, they are going bankrupt from health problems and they need the ACA to be expanded, not repealed.

I don't think everyone sees it that way. There is a mind set that you need to get yours and if you don't step up and take it, someone else will. There is only a finite amount of resources or jobs to go around.

Listen, I am not saying that this logic is foolproof, because it isn't, nor is it meant to be. But I can understand why someone voted for Trump and why they may have thought it was in their best interests to do so.

I'll put in a disclaimer for some of the confused that think I may support Trump, because I don't. I would have voted for Hillary if I was able to.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

Their workers are also more productive per hour worked. But yes the exportation of slavery to a place where we can't see it and they can't rebel is responsible for a good chunk of what we consume.

I guess the flip side of that coin is if those workers couldn't work there, what would they do? Cheap labor sucks, but I often wonder if people in China and other cheap labor countries would be better off without that kind of work.

[station]

^^ Re protesting. You're assuming most of the protesters didn't vote. Maybe, but what about the non-Americans protesting around the world? It's not a protest of the election, it's a protest of the orange man-baby and the kind of politics that delivered him the White House. And yes it's based on his past words and actions but they are abhorrent and unprecedented in this context. And I agree it's too late but I guess no one really saw this coming.

I hope they are also protesting an obstructionist party that is plainly going to use the master of distraction and a narrow electoral victory as license to strip away human rights and further screw over the poor and middle class. At least until he gets so unpopular that they have no choice but ride in as saviours and conveniently replace him with one of their own. The current state of hyper-partisan politics is disgusting (on both sides) and needs to be called out in any way possible.

[chemgear]

Hell of a lot of people around the US.

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/dc/natio...m=nationalmall

Chicago


St. Louis







Ha, Supergirl

[Clarkey]

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone (including this thread title), it's not like he does not provide enough other material to ridicule him on (that thing he chooses to have on his head).

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Then you see them talk about refugees from Syria. Knowing that when they come over they are going to be placed in subsidized housing, given English language training, opportunities to find work. Again, these people think about all that money used on refugees that could be going to help Americans find work while they are struggling to pay their power bill.

Not disagreeing with you that this is what a lot of the Trump supporters see/want. They are basically asking for handouts, which is interesting because all you ever hear on the broadcasts that appeal to them is about hard work and creating opportunity and not just giving out handouts. They want their handouts too.

The only difference is the Syrian refugee lived under legitimate dictatorships, extremism, economic hardship, possibly death of loved ones and destroyed families, displacement from their home, coming to a new land where they don't understand anything. They actually probably need a bit of a hand to get going in their new society.

Yet the Trump supporter worried about losing jobs to them grew up in a democratic country, with access to at least a basic American education, relative security, social familiarity, opportunity to pursue whatever they want, and probably some basic level of social assistance if required (which they rail against regardless).

Yet somehow a Syrian refugee getting language training is suddenly a major threat to their existence. Do these people want English language training too?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone (including this thread title), it's not like he does not provide enough other material to ridicule him on (that thing he chooses to have on his head).

Agreed, its pretty insensitive to the plight of the orange race.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone (including this thread title), it's not like he does not provide enough other material to ridicule him on (that thing he chooses to have on his head).

Ha ha The guy has a spray tan. It's not his "skin color tone" any more than a temporary tattoo is. Don't try to make it into something other than what it obviously is. You won't fool anybody.

[gallione11]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone (including this thread title), it's not like he does not provide enough other material to ridicule him on (that thing he chooses to have on his head).

I know you're trying to be the new Buster of the thread, but this was throughly covered in the last thread. Start here: http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...in#post6032280

Basically choice vs. traits you're born with. Completely different things.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone (including this thread title), it's not like he does not provide enough other material to ridicule him on (that thing he chooses to have on his head).

Are we going to actually have to defend how spray tanning is not a genetic skin tone?

[#22]

Originally Posted by station

Quality of education should be one of the main issues we fight for because if we're all dumb then it's hopeless. We'll all drown in a sea of mean, celebrity and gossip obsessed stupidity. We need to be kind and smart, spread love and truth, and fight for human rights. We need to raise our kids to do the same, influence their kids in a positive way, and just hope for the best.

Quoted for truth. Absolutely spot on

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

The iPhone is cheaper in labor hours because Foxconn and China have made an agreement to treat their workers like slaves who work, sleep and basically just LIVE to make the iPhone. The factory is setup in such a way that a worker at the iPhone plant has no other life than doing just that.

Obviously that won't happen in North America. And apparently we are okay with that because we love giving Apple billions upon billions in profit every year to keep the labor cost of the iPhone down.

A little off topic, but it's not like Apple couldn't afford to pay workers more. They choose to roll it into obscene levels of profits instead. If they were,e for instance, shut out of low labour cost countries and had to build them in NA, the cost of the phone could only go up as much as the market would bare, the rest would have to come out of Apples profits.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

A little off topic, but it's not like Apple couldn't afford to pay workers more. They choose to roll it into obscene levels of profits instead. If they were,e for instance, shut out of low labour cost countries and had to build them in NA, the cost of the phone could only go up as much as the market would bare, the rest would have to come out of Apples profits.

True, but why would they?

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

It's interesting to continually see the regressive left take pot shots at Trump's skin color tone

Haha, what?!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

True, but why would they?

Because corporations care, man! Really though, what other choice would they have if they were forced to make phones in the US? They would have to pay higher wages or no one would do the job. And you can only price a phone so high, or so I would have thought....$500 seems silly to me, yet people pay well over $1000 so I could be wrong on that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

A little off topic, but it's not like Apple couldn't afford to pay workers more. They choose to roll it into obscene levels of profits instead. If they were,e for instance, shut out of low labour cost countries and had to build them in NA, the cost of the phone could only go up as much as the market would bare, the rest would have to come out of Apples profits.

But don't forget apples profits actually means people's retirement funds.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

But don't forget apples profits actually means people's retirement funds.

Some, yes. But they are also hoarding yuuuge amounts of cash(lover $200 billion). The point is, they could afford to pay workers more, and choose not to.