[PGT] Flames nearly come back, lose 4-3 to Nashville

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Reading this thread and the forum the past couple weeks since the team has hit this latest bump in the road, it has made me realize the following:

- Gaudreau and Monahan getting their new contracts and leaving their entry level deals has falsely made many think the rebuild is over and we are now into this teams "win now window". It's caused all sort of miss aligned expectations. The analysis of the needs on here and what is and isn't working well on the ice is generally bang on, but the expectation that many of our young players should be performing at their "preceived potential" already is totally out of wack, and this thought that BT should have addressed all the holes that still exist in this team (from another top 4 D man, top RW and goaltending) is totally off base. This rebuild is actually way a head of schedule from where I'm sure any of us thought this would be when it started. Most of us probably couldn't have remotely seen how this team would have been competing for a playoff spot in 2016/2017 if you'd asked us to predict the future at the end of the tear down season.

It's fine to be frustrated, and want better, we all do. But patience is also needed. This team shouldn't rush out to fill in all the gaps right now, we aren't even close to this cores prime yet.

Completely disagree.

The core of this team is Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Brodie, & Hamilton.

Gaudreau is 23 and is in his 3rd season.
Monahan is 22 and is in his 4th season.
Bennett is 20 and effectively in his 2nd season.
Giordano is 33 and in his 10th season.
Brodie is 26 and in his 6th season.
Hamilton is 23 and in his 5th season.

Gaudreau and Monahan were both on a trajectory to reach elite status this year - Gaudreau coming off a year where he was 7th in the league in scoring and would have been a no-brainer for Team USA had he been older, and Monahan a legitimate threat to score 35+ goals while rounding out his overall game.

Giordano and Brodie were coming off years where they were both legitimate candidates for Team Canada, the deepest defensive roster in the world, and given Brodie's age and experience you would expect him to continue his rise. Hamilton's play in the latter 2/3 of last season made it reasonable to expect him to join Giordano and Brodie as a top tier defenseman.

Bennett is still young, but it was reasonable to expect him to take steps forward from his 18 goal, 36 point rookie year.

Supplementing that you had an emerging Backlund and dependable Stajan as depth centres, a blue-chip prospect in Tkachuk, Stanley Cup winners in Frolik & Brauer as middle 6 wingers, and Ferland, Bouma, Hathaway, etc. who could play in a 4th line role that could generate a lot of energy and allow you to truly roll 4 lines.

The core of the team made the second round of the playoffs 2 seasons ago, and the players forming the core all showed individual growth last year that was undermined by AHL level goaltending (none of the goalies the Flames employed as their starter last year could even land a back-up spot this year!). That issue appeared to be addressed by the acquisition of a solid tandum of Elliott & Johnson.

Ya, there were a couple of holes - missing one top 6 winger, and their 4th D position was being filled by a guy who could only tenuously be considered a top 4 D - but to say that those who expected more than a team struggling to play decent hockey for the majority of the season, and only in the payoff hunt due to a terribly under-performing Western Conference is BS.

This is no longer a 30 year-olds league... Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa, LA all started having great team success with key players in their early 20s. Just because the Oilers failed miserably to turn things around quickly doesn't mean every team should expect to take 5+ years to turn a team into a legitimate contender.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

The first one was a bad rebound for sure, but I pin that one more on Brodie. Doesn't even try to corral the rebound and loses Neal at the same time. If you let a sniper like that get one off from the hash marks, it's going in.

The third one was the PP goal right? The one that deflected through his five-hole? I felt like he should've had that. I get furious when I see goalies blindly drop into the butterfly only to have a low shot sneak in between the legs. At least get your freaking stickblade on the ice if you're hail marying it, man.

It seems like two of his fortes from the mid-November run, his glove hand and five-hole coverage, have now turned into weaknesses. Let Elliott run with the ball for a bit.

Every quality shot on net is the result of some defensive breakdown somewhere. No one is saying the defense didn't make any mistakes.

But that's why you have a goalie. If you're going to be a good team in a very competitive league, you have to have solid goaltending.

The Preds had breakdowns, and the Flames had some good chances, but Saros stoned them. Eventually the Preds got some chances and were able to beat Johnson. Once they built a lead, the Flames' play deteriorated.

When you regularly lose the goaltending battle, it deflates the team. You know you can't win. Conversely when you're getting great goaltending, you know you're always in it - and the team will play with infinitely more confidence.

Other than that one stretch where Johnson was on fire, the Flames have had sub-par goaltending for much of the year.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Young men with lots of money and popularity are no different than you and I at this age so this isn't exactly a Flames specific issue. It happens in all sports. There's been plenty of rumors of several star players on the Flames and their extra curricular activities going back to the 80's.

Nobody is saying this is a Flames specific issue. Lots of young players in the NHL lose the plot and go wild before they settle down and become dedicated pros. But that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Put me in the camp of where there's smoke there's fire.

[Edited]

[N-E-B]

I like when we lose and our team becomes a bunch of alcoholic cocaine addicts.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Maybe but none of us really have a clue about the truth and what's that got to do with Monahan?

It's pretty clear I'm not talking about Monahan. I'm talking about Gaudreau. Calgaryblood listed off a number of players and I chose to discuss one of them. Hopefully this clears up the confusion for you.

[MrMastodonFarm]

edit to remove quote

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Completely disagree.

The core of this team is Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Brodie, & Hamilton.

Gaudreau is 23 and is in his 3rd season.
Monahan is 22 and is in his 4th season.
Bennett is 20 and effectively in his 2nd season.
Giordano is 33 and in his 10th season.
Brodie is 26 and in his 6th season.
Hamilton is 23 and in his 5th season.

Gaudreau and Monahan were both on a trajectory to reach elite status this year - Gaudreau coming off a year where he was 7th in the league in scoring and would have been a no-brainer for Team USA had he been older, and Monahan a legitimate threat to score 35+ goals while rounding out his overall game.

Giordano and Brodie were coming off years where they were both legitimate candidates for Team Canada, the deepest defensive roster in the world, and given Brodie's age and experience you would expect him to continue his rise. Hamilton's play in the latter 2/3 of last season made it reasonable to expect him to join Giordano and Brodie as a top tier defenseman.

Bennett is still young, but it was reasonable to expect him to take steps forward from his 18 goal, 36 point rookie year.

Supplementing that you had an emerging Backlund and dependable Stajan as depth centres, a blue-chip prospect in Tkachuk, Stanley Cup winners in Frolik & Brauer as middle 6 wingers, and Ferland, Bouma, Hathaway, etc. who could play in a 4th line role that could generate a lot of energy and allow you to truly roll 4 lines.

The core of the team made the second round of the playoffs 2 seasons ago, and the players forming the core all showed individual growth last year that was undermined by AHL level goaltending (none of the goalies the Flames employed as their starter last year could even land a back-up spot this year!). That issue appeared to be addressed by the acquisition of a solid tandum of Elliott & Johnson.

Ya, there were a couple of holes - missing one top 6 winger, and their 4th D position was being filled by a guy who could only tenuously be considered a top 4 D - but to say that those who expected more than a team struggling to play decent hockey for the majority of the season, and only in the payoff hunt due to a terribly under-performing Western Conference is BS.

This is no longer a 30 year-olds league... Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa, LA all started having great team success with key players in their early 20s. Just because the Oilers failed miserably to turn things around quickly doesn't mean every team should expect to take 5+ years to turn a team into a legitimate contender.

That's a fairly re-visionist history post though. Our rebuild is ahead of schedule, for some of the reasons you listed. On your list, only two of those players you list should be in or hitting their primes (Gio or Brodie), the rest have their best hockey a head of them, regardless of age or previous accomplishment.

True, it's not a 30 year old's league anymore, but it's also not a 20 year old's league either. I agree the Oilers aren't the standard to hold yourself too as the norm, but neither are the Hawks and Pens. We don't have Sydney Crosby (no, Johnny is not at that level, but alas McDavid is) let alone the equivalent of a Malkin from our drafting to boot. And our young players don't have the supporting cast that was around in Chicago for that first cup (not to mention their list of young up coming talent was far larger than what you posted for us) at that time as well.

I'm not saying it's not reasonable to have expected or hoped for more from Monahan, Brodie and Bennett for example this year, or more jump from Johnny. But if after last season you thought any of our young talent was on the verg of making this team "elite", you were pinning way too much of our lack of success on goaltending. Progression of these young players isn't going to be completely linear, and if anything your post showed that our run 2 years ago also falsely inflated expectations. That was an overachievement, end of story.

When I say it's a head of schedule, you have to go back to 4 years ago and evaluate, not look at how your expectations got falsely re-set with a playoff run two years ago.

4 years ago:

- People weren't sold on Monahan being the right pick at #6, most didn't think he'd make the team in year one. Now we are all over him in year 4 because he hasn't been one of the best centre's in the game this year.

- Johnny Gaudreau wasn't even a lock to make the NHL, let alone be one of the top 10 scorers in the league (perhaps the main reason we are even upset this team isn't a lock for the playoffs this year is that surprisingly a 4th overall pick in teh system could be one of the best players in the game).

- Hamilton wasn't even in the org. Despite his early struggles, he's come along nicely, a legit top 4 defender in the game. Not sure any of us could have counted on us drafting a player already as good as he was in the draft year we traded for him, that puts us way a head rather than having to wait for a top D prospect to get ready in the minors.

- Bennett. I actually think people probably expected Bennett to be an instant sensation in the NHL. Our highest ever pick, who I think many hoped we stole the best player in the draft because of chin ups and expected immediate impact. Agreed he hasn't been that yet, but he's also only 20, missed a full year due to injury, we owe him some time to develop.

- Thachuk. He seems to have been a more instant impact than anyone should have expected.

So I guess my point being, when we started this thing 4 years ago, even with the way they are playing right now, can you honestly say at this point:
- You expected Monahan to be better than he is now?
- You expected Gaudreau to be better than he is now?
- You expected we'd have a D-man new to the team as good as Hamilton is now?
- You expected Bennett to be as good as he is now?
- you expected our first round pick from this year to be as good as Thachuk is now?

Of those 5 questions, I can only answer YES to the Bennett question. So for me, that's why we are ahead of schedule. Things take time to develop and holes take time to fill. Gaudreau being who he is filled one of those holes without needing another year of tanking to get a player like him. Hamilton being a trade allowed us to by pass having to develop him for a couple of years first. That puts us a head, and we need to give this team team for all those players to continue to progress, and give the GM time to fill the other holes as well (like goaltending), because as we are finding out, it's not easy.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I like when we lose and our team becomes a bunch of alcoholic cocaine addicts.

I like when people take other users posts that have clearly stated they've heard rumours and put words in their mouths like "alcoholic cocaine addicts". Get a grip.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

I like when people take other users posts that have clearly stated they've heard rumours and put words in their mouths like "alcoholic cocaine addicts". Get a grip.

Ive heard the rumours too, and I hate to get on my high horse but I find it pretty petty and immature to discuss them as if they have any merit when I have no proof of fact. They're irrelevant and not worth discussing.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Ive heard the rumours too, and I hate to get on my high horse but I find it pretty petty and immature to discuss them as if they have any merit when I have no proof of fact. They're irrelevant and not worth discussing.

Again, that may be why people chose to say they were rumours and not necessarily fact and then end the conversation shortly there after.

It's all good.

[Gaskal]

We had a horrible start to the season, our best players are really inconsistent, and goaltending is still iffy at times.


But we're still sitting in a WC spot even then. True, the teams chasing us have games in hand on us, but they still have to win those games. Right now, LA and Nashville both need to go 1-1-1, and Vancouver needs to go 2-0 (we'd have ROW on them even with tied pts, thanks to the numerous loser pts they've harvested). Not out of the question, but shouldn't count chickens until they're hatched.


Now if someone had told you, back in November ( when we lost Johnny) that we'd be in this kind of position despite all those negative circumstances, I'm pretty sure most posters here would gladly take that respite. Chasing a wildcard spot for most of a season is about right for a team finishing bottom-10 the previous year, that made significant additions in the offseason - and that's with Johnny/Bennett forgetting how to hockey.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The NHL (Bill Daly) acknowledged a rise in cocaine use in it's league but also qualified by saying if it's over 20 regular users they'd be shocked.

We're treading in some dangerous waters here though. Your hearsay should stay untyped.

Edited. Please remove the quoted text.

[Mr.Coffee]

I've heard the rumours too from multiple legit sources actually, but I do struggle with the relevancy. Lots of young people go and party and show up bright eyed and bushy tailed the next day. It doesn't correlate to me that his poor play is a result of alleged issues with partying. I think we should assume that NHL players will party (and probably should to be honest, because it can be a good team builder actually). If the Flames party, other NHL teams party too. You'd expect that to impact those teams too.

However what I do see if a very frustrated guy who seems like all the fame, cash and success he has had here appears to have gone to his head. I say this based on body language if things don't go his way, and the fact that he simply refuses to use his teammates.

If Johnny just started passing more, he'd revert back to normal pretty quickly. However he has decided that he needs to stickhandle through 5 guys and that doesn't work in community hockey when you're 7 let alone the NHL.

[bigrangy]

Johnny could pass more, for sure. But the recipients of his passes know that the gameplan is "pass it to johnny". Monahan does it, Chiasson does it. None of his regular linemates have the willingness or ability to do anything themselves.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Johnny could pass more, for sure. But the recipients of his passes know that the gameplan is "pass it to johnny". Monahan does it, Chiasson does it. None of his regular linemates have the willingness or ability to do anything themselves.

Monahan doesn't have the willingness or ability to do anything himself?

Try again. How about making Johnny accountable?

[Flash Walken]

it would be one thing if monahan was getting garbage lucky goals or something, but he's looked dangerous in all the games he's scored prior to getting his goal in that game. He's creating things for himself and the pucks are going for in for him periodically because of it.

I think the stress of the training camp contract situation and the expectation to produce and be the team's best player that has Gaudreau all off his game mentally. It's been the story of the league too many times to count; guy gets the big money deal and puts all the weight of the team on his shoulders.

He's been visibly off his game - being loose, having fun, working hard, fighting through - since the start of the season,

[bigrangy]

Monahan absolutely has the ability, that's why it's so frustrating that he doesn't show the willingness to do things with the puck and get to the dirty spots. He has been much better recently, but there's still a way for him to go.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Monahan absolutely has the ability, that's why it's so frustrating that he doesn't show the willingness to do things with the puck and get to the dirty spots. He has been much better recently, but there's still a way for him to go.

Gaudreau has a longer ways to go.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I've heard the rumours too from multiple legit sources actually, but I do struggle with the relevancy. Lots of young people go and party and show up bright eyed and bushy tailed the next day. It doesn't correlate to me that his poor play is a result of alleged issues with partying. I think we should assume that NHL players will party (and probably should to be honest, because it can be a good team builder actually). If the Flames party, other NHL teams party too. You'd expect that to impact those teams too.

.

Yeah, there's a hell of a lot of smoke to the Gaudreau and Monahan's off ice issues, and if people want to deny or not believe them that's absolutely fine. But how can you say that if the rumors are true that there's no relevancy to on ice performance?

I get not believing there's partying issues but if there is then of course they'd contribute to on ice performance.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

it would be one thing if monahan was getting garbage lucky goals or something, but he's looked dangerous in all the games he's scored prior to getting his goal in that game. He's creating things for himself and the pucks are going for in for him periodically because of it.

I think the stress of the training camp contract situation and the expectation to produce and be the team's best player that has Gaudreau all off his game mentally. It's been the story of the league too many times to count; guy gets the big money deal and puts all the weight of the team on his shoulders.

He's been visibly off his game - being loose, having fun, working hard, fighting through - since the start of the season,

This is probably part of the reason for sure. He was one of the best looking players in the World Cup of Hockey so I'm not buying that partying is bringing his game down. He's probably put excess pressure on himself to perform up to the level of the deal and he's struggled adapting to a new system. It's likely not much more than that in the big picture.