Helmets when tobogganing

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Ace

So what is the consensus on the right helmet for tobogganing. Ski Helmet? Do kids wear hockey and bike helmets too?

Bike helmets are designed for single impact, and then they are garbage. My limited knowledge seems to think ski and hockey helmets are similar, but ski helmets are better for cold weather comfort.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

My limited knowledge seems to think ski and hockey helmets are similar, but ski helmets are better for cold weather comfort.

Hockey and bike are more similar than hockey and ski.

Ski helmets generally cover more area. Hockey helmets are designed for a single impact. Most ski helmets are designed for multiple impacts.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't understand why we would stop trying to get the lines down on the chart. Sometimes safety becomes over the top, but is wearing a helmet during sports activities a negative experience in any tangible way that offsets the prevention of injury it provides?

Our society's collective assessment of risk is terrible. There's very little correlation between things we worry about and the things that actually do us harm. The most dangerous thing, by far, most of us do in our day-to-day lives is drive. And yet there would be fierce opposition to mandating helmets in cars, even though they would undoubtedly save many lives and prevent thousands of serious injuries. More pedestrian suffer head injuries than cyclists, and yet our society has deemed bike helmets essential while nobody wears a helmet when they're walking.

Safety is always a trade-off. I feel I'm better equipped to assess those trade-offs than public sentiment. Just as I'm not going to let the public hysteria over child abduction prevent my kids from playing outdoors unsupervised, I'm not going to let blanket assumptions about the necessity of helmets dictate my behaviour.

[CliffFletcher]

Bike helmets are only really good for direct impacts on the top of the head. They do little to protect the face or the back of the head, which means they're not very effective for tobogganing.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Our society's collective assessment of risk is terrible. There's very little correlation between things we worry about and the things that actually do us harm. The most dangerous thing, by far, most of us do in our day-to-day lives is drive. And yet there would be fierce opposition to mandating helmets in cars, even though they would undoubtedly save many lives and prevent thousands of serious injuries. More pedestrian suffer head injuries than cyclists, and yet our society has deemed bike helmets essential while nobody wears a helmet when they're walking.

Safety is always a trade-off. I feel I'm better equipped to assess those trade-offs than public sentiment. Just as I'm not going to let the public hysteria over child abduction prevent my kids from playing outdoors unsupervised, I'm not going to let blanket assumptions about the necessity of helmets dictate my behaviour.

You're allowed to put your kids at whatever risk you're comfortable with (up to the point where you're putting them in obvious guaranteed danger), but that doesn't mean others should follow your example.

The whole idea that just because we aren't safe all the time means we can't add safety measures to certain actions some of the time makes no sense.

It should be noted that head injuries for cyclists have fallen significantly since the introduction of helmets, to the point where (as you said) they're below pedestrians. If you wanted to disprove the usefulness of safety protection, citing the fact that cyclists (helmet wearers) are below pedestrians (non-helmet-wearers) in head injuries despite engaging in a more dangerous action was a very bad way to go about it.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Went out to the Glendale hill over the holidays with the 5 year old, and decided to wear the ski helmets. Not that many wearing, but it does feel like something that will catch on, similar to on the ski hill from 20 years ago or so.

For us, it felt like the right thing to do. And to be clear, I felt it important that both father and son wore a helmet.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The whole idea that just because we aren't safe all the time means we can't add safety measures to certain actions some of the time makes no sense.

The 'whole idea' is that our notions of Safe and Unsafe are binary, and largely unsupported by empirical data. The safety of children is regarded as a kind of sacred value, so people don't want to recognize that it's situational, and subject to a sliding scale of risk and convenience. Putting kids in helmets for car rides would unquestionably make them safer. The only reason not to is convenience and comfort. There is no clear, hard line between putting kids in helmets when tobogganing and putting them in helmets for trips in the car. Most people don't want to think too much about this stuff, so they rely on social norms to guide their behaviour. But social norms are a terrible guide to risk assessment (see nobody lets their kids play outside anymore because of stranger danger).

[Ducay]

Excellent post Cliff; children's safety and happiness is something no parent would ever willingly or openly compromise on, so given the choice, they will generally always air on the side of caution when a risk is perceived (however small).

As a parent I will ensure my kids are now wearing their helmets in the car as well. Forgot how dangerous those things are!

[PepsiFree]

But does that in any way negate the safety increase from a helmet while sledding?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

But does that in any way negate the safety increase from a helmet while sledding?

It's obviously safer to wear a helmet. But there are situations when the risk is so marginal that erring on the side of caution is akin to putting on a helmet while crossing the Chinook parking lot on foot. Go right ahead of you want to make that trade-off. But don't regard anyone who isn't wearing a helmet while crossing the Chinook parking lot as recklessly endangering themselves or their family.

[Ducay]

I think the point being made is of course it is going to be safer wearing a helmet tobogganing, but how much no one knows. It is also safer to wear a helmet in generally any situation, but we have drawn artificial lines in society to indicate where that line has been drawn.

Heck, just getting into a car has got to be 100 times more risky than tobogganing with no helmet. And yet no one chastises people on facebook for posting pictures of a kid in a car.

[puckedoff]

I find that as the driver, when I put on my helmet in my car my passengers typically follow suit immediately.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's obviously safer to wear a helmet. But there are situations when the risk is so marginal that erring on the side of caution is akin to putting on a helmet while crossing the Chinook parking lot on foot. Go right ahead of you want to make that trade-off. But don't regard anyone who isn't wearing a helmet while crossing the Chinook parking lot as recklessly endangering themselves or their family.

And according to this guy, tobogganing isn't one of them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle16385149/

In fact, while doing my own research on catastrophic injuries in sports and recreation for a book, I found that tobogganing ranked fourth on the list of sports and recreational activities in terms of personal risk –after diving, snowmobiling and parachuting.

The guy makes the point that, yes there are a lot of things you can do to reduce the risk of injury while tobogganing, but that doesn't mean a helmet shouldn't be an important part of it.

[PepsiFree]

While I get crossing the street or even just sitting in a car is more dangerous overall, I assume sledding has a higher rate of incident-per-outing than either of those activities, which is probably where the artificial lines get drawn.

From some basic research, it looks like (in the states) there were 20,000 sledding injuries in 2010, vs 60,000 pedestrian injuries. Sledding looks an extreme amount more dangerous here, considering the much higher amount of pedestrians vs sledders and the rate at which people engage in each activity.

It's not everything, but it's not nothing. I don't think every dangerous activity needs protective gear, but people should keep the rate of injury per outing in mind, not the overall number of injuries.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I think the point being made is of course it is going to be safer wearing a helmet tobogganing, but how much no one knows. It is also safer to wear a helmet in generally any situation, but we have drawn artificial lines in society to indicate where that line has been drawn.

Heck, just getting into a car has got to be 100 times more risky than tobogganing with no helmet. And yet no one chastises people on facebook for posting pictures of a kid in a car.

Well you would be chastised if you had your kid in the car without a seatbelt. Or an infant not in a car seat. A car has crumple zones, airbags, side impact beams, and seat belts. If you aren't using all of the safety features a car has to offer, you're being super stupid.

Wearing a helmet while tobogganing is safer than tobogganing without a helmet. That's basic. I'd feel like a total idiot if my helmetless kid was concussed while tobogganing when there are perfectly good helmets hanging off hooks in my garage right beside where we grabbed the sleds. Don't put your kid in a helmet while he flies down a hill, idgaf, but hopefully you can at least accept that kids are better off in helmets than they are without.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well you would be chastised if you had your kid in the car without a seatbelt. Or an infant not in a car seat. A car has crumple zones, airbags, side impact beams, and seat belts. If you aren't using all of the safety features a car has to offer, you're being super stupid.

Wearing a helmet while tobogganing is safer than tobogganing without a helmet. That's basic. I'd feel like a total idiot if my helmetless kid was concussed while tobogganing when there are perfectly good helmets hanging off hooks in my garage right beside where we grabbed the sleds. Don't put your kid in a helmet while he flies down a hill, idgaf, but hopefully you can at least accept that kids are better off in helmets than they are without.

The underlying point is that no, you're not using all the safety features available to you when driving a car. You could add a helmet to the mix and be even safer. Not wearing a helmet while driving, when a perfectly good one is hanging right there in the garage, right beside the car, is being super stupid.


Its all rhetorical really. Again, everything has risk and benefit tied to it. Ultimate safety would involve doing nothing in life. Who knows where the line is to be drawn. For some tobogganing is risky enough for a helmet, some it isn't.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Ducay

The underlying point is that no, you're not using all the safety features available to you when driving a car. You could add a helmet to the mix and be even safer. Not wearing a helmet while driving, when a perfectly good one is hanging right there in the garage, right beside the car, is being super stupid.


Its all rhetorical really. Again, everything has risk and benefit tied to it. Ultimate safety would involve doing nothing in life. Who knows where the line is to be drawn. For some tobogganing is risky enough for a helmet, some it isn't.

Just a second here. Who gaf about wearing helmets in cars? Tobogganing with a helmet is safer than tobogganing without. This doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Just a second here. Who gaf about wearing helmets in cars? Tobogganing with a helmet is safer than tobogganing without. This doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

How do you select which unknown risks you care about?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GGG

How do you select which unknown risks you care about?

Well, anything that involves speed and my kid's bare head I put a helmet on them. Skating, skateboarding, biking, snowboarding and tobogganing - they wear helmets doing all of those activities. Am I missing something or is this all super obvious? I don't see how this is contentious or why you would want to convince me to take the helmets off my kids for these things. You're blowing me away, here.

[calf]

Originally Posted by Ducay

The underlying point is that no, you're not using all the safety features available to you when driving a car. You could add a helmet to the mix and be even safer. Not wearing a helmet while driving, when a perfectly good one is hanging right there in the garage, right beside the car, is being super stupid.


Its all rhetorical really. Again, everything has risk and benefit tied to it. Ultimate safety would involve doing nothing in life. Who knows where the line is to be drawn. For some tobogganing is risky enough for a helmet, some it isn't.

With a car you're using multiple safety systems and devices that protect someone from injury. A helmet doesn't have as much marginal utility when you consider everything else in place.

When tobogganing, you go from zero safety equipment in place to one.