Kevin O'Leary's Letter to Premier Notley - Carbon Tax Discussion

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

The lack of understanding that 'Electricity' is not an energy source, it is the product of another process.

Everybody knows that too.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Unless you have some sort of data that would support the argument that the carbon emissions created by making an electric car combined with the emissions
created to charge it during it's lifespan are greater than the emissions created by building a gasoline powered car combined with the emissions that car will generate in its lifespan, you may want to reconsider how you are presenting your argument.

The argument that 'the fuel that powers the car is only half of the equation?'

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Locke

The argument that 'the fuel that powers the car is only half of the equation?'

Which is also true of gas-powered cars.

What point are you making? That electricity is a product of a process and electric cars are made from parts? This is basic stuff.

[Wormius]

I think the concern was that unless you live in a region where your electricity is produced by: solar; geothermal; wind; hydro; or nuclear - there isn't going to be much of a net gain. You're either burning the hydrocarbons in your car, or they're being burned at a plant - out of sight, out of mind.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Locke

The argument that 'the fuel that powers the car is only half of the equation?'

Last time I checked, the data said that if all cars in the U.S. were electric they would get an average of 70 MPGe which is about 60% better than the current average of all passenger cars. The well to wheel energy to produce electric vs. gas I have seen figures all over the place. My personal opinion is the energy usage to produce would be very similar there is not some magic that goes into a battery pack that is resource intensive versus casting engine blocks, heads and the energy used to manufacture the numerous fuel related components among other things.

Also recycling a battery is probably much easier than the hundreds of engine/drivetrain components.

But no matter how great an electric car may actually be it is worthless in this province if we have nowhere to charge them and the gains are not earth shattering if we continue to produce 90% of our electricity from burning fuels. Denmark is being very aggressive in producing clean energy but Alberta doesn't have a coastline, other forms of clean energy are they even viable here currently? I don't know, and I don't think this government has any clue either I fear Notley will throw money blindly at projects that will make almost no difference.

[Coach]

Who could have seen this coming.

"Name something that uses less carbon"
"An electric car"
"They have their own problems. Don't you know where the electricity comes from?"
"Maybe we should try to change the source of electricity."
"But the coal JERRRGHHHHBSS"
"How will you pay for the updates to this new energy?"
"Maybe if we tax the bad stuff and put the tax towards trying to find solutions."
"But, China!"

and around we go.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Who could have seen this coming.

"Name something that uses less carbon"
"An electric car"
"They have their own problems. Don't you know where the electricity comes from?"
"Maybe we should try to change the source of electricity."
"But the coal JERRRGHHHHBSS"
"How will you pay for the updates to this new energy?"
"Maybe if we tax the bad stuff and put the tax towards trying to find solutions."
"But, China!"

and around we go.

Who could have seen this coming?

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Locke

Who could have seen this coming?

He's right tho. Literally that's the endless merry go round we find ourselves in

[Coach]

Yeah. I've been trying really hard not to comment in threads like this because I've realized that no one here is going to convince other people to care about something that they just don't.

When someone posts a graph showing US gasoline prices trying to trump someone else's assertion that Canadians are getting gouged at the pump regardless of a carbon tax, and people don't seem to notice or care, it just shows people will see what they want.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

He's right tho. Literally that's the endless merry go round we find ourselves in

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah. I've been trying really hard not to comment in threads like this because I've realized that no one here is going to convince other people to care about something that they just don't.

When someone posts a graph showing US gasoline prices trying to trump someone else's assertion that Canadians are getting gouged at the pump regardless of a carbon tax, and people don't seem to notice or care, it just shows people will see what they want.

You could also consider the concept that there isnt enough compelling evidence to conclusively sway an opinion but you wouldnt notice or care about that, people just see what they want.

Yeah, thats a two-way street.

Just calling people unwilling to change is easier.

Pretty much sums up NDP supporters. Rhetoric trumps all.

Anyways, you're right, electric cars are the answer, I dont know why we even bother debating it, everyone should be using one.

Well, then we'd need more electricity and we cant use any of the inexpensive resources we have, we have to to convert most of our grid...sorry, I got carried away again, I forgot that down-stream effects dont exist. Sorry.

When do we get issued our Alberta Government Approved Electric Cars? Presumably produced by Lada.

[Dion]

Dan Morrison · Works at Self-Employed

Wait...what?

Albertan's will start seeing the benefits? Wasn't this about climate change? Will the climate only change in Alberta?You mean you are taking people's money and giving it to other people and this is the benefit Albertans will see?

Bwaahahaha....you can't make this stuff up!

Hey - all you people who have commented positively for the ndp because you have believed money is going to change the climate.... I told you - it is just to buy votes by giving people money they have not earned!

Pure socialism...trying to dupe people into voting for you to continue the cash flow coming from others earned money...while the rest of the system is destroyed due to massive debts piling up and investors running away from AB.

Meanwhile - as the world turns... coal plants are being built everywhere this year:

Eu has 468 plants building 27 more for a total of 495
Turkey has 56 plants building 93 more total 149
South Africa has 79 building 24 more total 103
India has 589 plants building 446 more total 1036
Philippines has 19 building 60 more total 79
South Korea has 58 building 26 more total 84
Japan has 90 building 45 more total 135
China has 2363 building 1171 more total 3534

But here comes the AB ndp to save the planet by shutting down our 5 plants - lol...except it is not funny - it is a disgrace!

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/al...840/story.html

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

He's right tho. Literally that's the endless merry go round we find ourselves in

Sorry, I didnt quote your post properly.

But thats fine. The endless merry-go-round is frustrating but whats important is to keep talking about it.

Just giving up solves nothing, its the open discourse as events and information change and progress thats important.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sorry, I didnt quote your post properly.

But thats fine. The endless merry-go-round is frustrating but whats important is to keep talking about it.

Just giving up solves nothing, its the open discourse as events and information change and progress thats important.

Do you really think zamler and 2stonedbirds have any intention of considering other peoples arguments and weighing them against all evidence?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Do you really think zamler and 2stonedbirds have any intention of considering other peoples arguments and weighing them against all evidence?

Thats not any of my business. I nor anyone else can influence their opinions if they dont want their opinions influenced, and thats fine.

But we have the choice of just telling them to shut up and never speak but then if they had something to add you could miss it.

I often find that the opinions that I disagree with the most offer an insight that I'd never arrive at on my own. They're more often than not entirely batcrap crazy, but that keeps you in touch with thoughts and ideas that are foreign and maybe makes you think differently than you normally would. It also often explains why we are where we are today, but we'll leave that for now.

Reading isnt hard. Anyone can say their piece and if its garbage we can either choose to ignore it or attempt to change that opinion based on our opinions or other information, but it isnt as though we've been personally injured or harmed.

The free exchange of ideas and opinions is paramount, bullying people into fear of expression of those ideas and opinions is counter-productive. See: Trump, Donald.

It happens. Hell, I'm certainly guilty of it from time to time but people can call me out too.

I'm no stranger to losing my interwebs-cool or burn out a bit from trying to change other people's opinions.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Locke

You could also consider the concept that there isnt enough compelling evidence to conclusively sway an opinion but you wouldnt notice or care about that, people just see what they want.

Yeah, thats a two-way street.

Just calling people unwilling to change is easier.

Pretty much sums up NDP supporters. Rhetoric trumps all.

Anyways, you're right, electric cars are the answer, I dont know why we even bother debating it, everyone should be using one.

Well, then we'd need more electricity and we cant use any of the inexpensive resources we have, we have to to convert most of our grid...sorry, I got carried away again, I forgot that down-stream effects dont exist. Sorry.

When do we get issued our Alberta Government Approved Electric Cars? Presumably produced by Lada.

Actually, despite my personal biases, I feel like most of my posts take into account all sides. And despite what I'd like to see happen, I realize that these are just theories and everything is up for debate. Thats why you may notice a lot of my posts say "maybe". It seems like a lot of people are completely convinced this will be nothing but pure evil for all Alberta despite, as you noted, no convincing evidence on either side.

I'm not looking down on anyone for what they care about. You're the one that took it there. I care about trying to solve this problem more than your bank account. You care about your bank account more than trying to solve the problem. Both are reasonable positions from our points of view.

To me it's the conservative side that seems to put all thoughts about "maybe" to the side for the sake of maintaining these economic theories they consider to be gospel. These indestructible truths of the universe that are the free market and the invisible hand and everything would be all hunky dory if we just left business alone to spread all their economic goodness.

Except those models are built on productivity, not profit. They are being used to maximize profit and that's why everything else gets squeezed. Tha'ts why minimum wages are necessary. That's why progressive taxes are necessary. They wouldn't be if they actually adhered to the theories they claim to be so fond of and paid people according to the businesses rise in profits. Or reinvested the significant portions of their capital back into growth rather than using them for absolute absurd salaries/bonuses for management. Or adjusted their prices according to the market price for their product, rather than creating a false market for their product and controlling the supply to keep prices high.

I'm personally getting pretty sick of the common assertion than anyone who even hints that the tax might have SOME benefit, or that any "leftist" policy may work, that they just don't understand the economics. It's ridiculous. People think they have the written-in-stone rules for exactly what government should be involved with and what they shouldn't. We all have ideas about what those things are. Nobody is right or wrong until decades later. We have maybe 100 years of guess work operating as we are in our modern form and we're facing a problem that most of conventional science seems to agree could have pretty devastating effects to the environment in which we live. Governments all over the world are trying to get creative about solving the problem. If you don't want to be a part of it that's your choice, and that's fine. But I hate it being paraded around like it's the truth and anyone else is a bleeding heart hippy idiot.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm personally getting pretty sick of the common assertion than anyone who even hints that the tax might have SOME benefit, or that any "leftist" policy may work, that they just don't understand the economics. It's ridiculous.

It's not just limited to economics and the carbon tax.

Did know electric cars have tires and batteries and aren't fueled by magic?

[pylon]

Wooden bodied, steam powered cars. Problem solved.

Oh wait. The boiler is powered by coal. Foiled again!

[Tinordi]

The whingeing will continue until the triviality of the tax is recognized.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Do you really think zamler and 2stonedbirds have any intention of considering other peoples arguments and weighing them against all evidence?

The first post I made in this thread was to point out how you, when asked to dissect your point, refused to do so.

And now it's myself that chooses to ignore arguments; hilarity my dear man. Hilarity.

[Kavvy]

I love people driving electric cars. Makes the air I breath cleaner. I don't know the total life cycle pollution of an electric car vs a traditional car, but the impact on my direct air in the City of Calgary I would assume is cleaner from an electric car.