Holding a player unnecessarily? Is that even a thing? Who cares if the official is holding a player longer than he needs to? It's one thing if an official is actually attacking a player, but how is there even a discussion about unnecessary restraint? That's one you just have to deal with as a player, wait for the altrication to be over and go on their way. We aren't talking about official abuse of a player here, people seem to be debating official not making the right judgement call on restraint, which doesn't matter at all.
No question what the player did here was completely over the line. He didn't just tug his arms back trying to get out of the linesman's grasp but actually chopped at the official's hands. You should expect to be suspended every time for something like that.
However, similar to telling a pedestrian to try not to get hit by a car in a crosswalk, even though the car is legally obligated to yield, officials are absolutely taught not to unnecessarily restrain a player. In fact, what the linesman is doing in this clip is almost the prototypical example of what not to do when controlling an angry player.
It will never make the player's conduct ok, but that official should be forced to watch that video and write a memo for next year's training camp as to how he could have prevented that incident rather than becoming a significant contributing cause of it. The double arm grab from the front puts you in the position of an aggressive combatant and almost compels an instinctive reaction from the player of exactly what happened.
The player is still at fault I'm not saying otherwise...he needs to remain in control of himself...but as an official you can help a player calm down or you can push them toward the edge. If the NHL and the referees association are not discussing what they can do to avoid these incidents (such as remind officials about techniques to avoid unnecessary restraint of an angry player) then they are failing to take appropriate responsibility in my view.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MBates For This Useful Post:
I'd prefer to say you got 'officialed' . I can't count how many times I was taught when I was wearing the stripes not to grab a player's arms the way this guy did.
I'd prefer to say you got 'officialed' . I can't count how many times I was taught when I was wearing the stripes not to grab a player's arms the way this guy did.
Oh. My. God.
You're a lawyer and a referee...?
I dont even know what to say. If you were a practicing Satanist or a Witch you could complete the 'Trifecta of Evil.'
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Locke For This Useful Post:
If an official is holding you, its necessary unless hes just pinning you down so the other guy can have free shots. But thats rare.
Honestly, hockey needs to have higher standards in terms of respect of officials and it starts in peewee.
These guys grow up in the culture where swearing at or disrespecting the refs is the norm.
I get that tempers flare and that nobody likes the zebras but once you grow up into a real boy you have to act like it.
Let's not pretend officials aren't the same human beings as players, who can have a bad day, can get defense, can seek Schadenfreude, or who can even troll. If would be foolish to pretend these guys are some sort of Buddhist monk with little no error in their conduct, while the rest of us need to be "big boys".
I've seen officials flat out troll a team and smirk about it. I've heard officials threaten players. And what happens almost every game and time I've played any sport being officialled, is I recieve insecurity and aggression from an official if you ask them to justify their call.
I agree with the sentiment from other posters that there needs to be more transparent accountability regarding the officials, especially considering the players are under constant slow motion surveillance and publicized discipline, while the officials are secretive and protected. Both parties can literally dictate the outcome of a game
Let's not pretend officials aren't the same human beings as players, who can have a bad day, can get defense, can seek Schadenfreude, or who can even troll. If would be foolish to pretend these guys are some sort of Buddhist monk with little no error in their conduct, while the rest of us need to be "big boys".
I've seen officials flat out troll a team and smirk about it. I've heard officials threaten players. And what happens almost every game and time I've played any sport being officialled, is I recieve insecurity and aggression from an official if you ask them to justify their call.
I agree with the sentiment from other posters that there needs to be more transparent accountability regarding the officials, especially considering the players are under constant slow motion surveillance and publicized discipline
Yeah, the training ground for officials is not all benevolent hockey lords. The vast majority of refs I encountered when coaching high-level youth hockey are straight up a**hats. Think they can do no wrong, their decisions are always in line with the rules, and Hockey Canada has zero accountability for them.
I've seen refs shout slurs at kids, swear at kids unprompted, take obvious control of a game for poops giggles, try to hit on moms while games are going on. It was actually at the point where getting even half decent reffing was a major talking point amongst opposing coaches.
The NHL standing behind refs no matter what is not unique to that league. I get no one should be getting abused, but that includes by officials and their conduct should be under just as much scrutiny and penalized just as harshly.
We've seen some pretty shotty reffing so far this season, and does anything seem to get done about it? How come blatant missed calls aren't publicly retracted? What's wrong with acknowledging, "yup, I made a mistake. My bad."
Very few refs have ever said those words to a coach or player, at least in my experience. And the ones that do are generally much more respected by everyone involved.
__________________
Last edited by Coach; 01-02-2017 at 12:39 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to Coach For This Useful Post:
Let's not pretend officials aren't the same human beings as players, who can have a bad day, can get defense, can seek Schadenfreude, or who can even troll. If would be foolish to pretend these guys are some sort of Buddhist monk with little no error in their conduct, while the rest of us need to be "big boys".
I've seen officials flat out troll a team and smirk about it. I've heard officials threaten players. And what happens almost every game and time I've played any sport being officialled, is I recieve insecurity and aggression from an official if you ask them to justify their call.
I agree with the sentiment from other posters that there needs to be more transparent accountability regarding the officials, especially considering the players are under constant slow motion surveillance and publicized discipline, while the officials are secretive and protected. Both parties can literally dictate the outcome of a game
No, but it comes from both sides.
From very, very early on the relationship between Players and Refs is contentious.
At the very outset it is a hostile relationship and thats what has to change.
Nobody gives anybody the benefit of the doubt ever and so everyone is on edge about to explode at the other one at any given moment.
Thats the relationship that has to change and it has to change from the grassroots level up.
I keep saying this: I wish every sport had refereeing like Rugby.
And the result is that the ref is focused on refereeing the game and not managing all the players on the field and you get....better quality of refereeing and ergo a better game.
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Let's not pretend officials aren't the same human beings as players, who can have a bad day, can get defense, can seek Schadenfreude, or who can even troll. If would be foolish to pretend these guys are some sort of Buddhist monk with little no error in their conduct, while the rest of us need to be "big boys".
I've seen officials flat out troll a team and smirk about it. I've heard officials threaten players. And what happens almost every game and time I've played any sport being officialled, is I recieve insecurity and aggression from an official if you ask them to justify their call.
I agree with the sentiment from other posters that there needs to be more transparent accountability regarding the officials, especially considering the players are under constant slow motion surveillance and publicized discipline, while the officials are secretive and protected. Both parties can literally dictate the outcome of a game
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyC
Yeah, the training ground for officials is not all benevolent hockey lords. The vast majority of refs I encountered when coaching high-level youth hockey are straight up a**hats. Think they can do no wrong, their decisions are always in line with the rules, and Hockey Canada has zero accountability for them.
I've seen refs shout slurs at kids, swear at kids unprompted, take obvious control of a game for poops giggles, try to hit on moms while games are going on. It was actually at the point where getting even half decent reffing was a major talking point amongst opposing coaches.
The NHL standing behind refs no matter what is not unique to that league. I get no one should be getting abused, but that includes by officials and their conduct should be under just as much scrutiny and penalized just as harshly.
We've seen some pretty shotty reffing so far this season, and does anything seem to get done about it? How come blatant missed calls aren't publicly retracted? What's wrong with acknowledging, "yup, I made a mistake. My bad."
Very few refs have ever said those words to a coach or player, at least in my experience. And the ones that do are generally much more respected by everyone involved.
Although this is definitely true in some cases, there is no grounds for this argument in this particular incident here.
In this DeAngelo situation, do you see the linesman shove, punch or hit DeAngelo or do anything aggressive towards him (other than hold him maybe too tightly and too long) before DeAngelo loses his poop and acts like a baby? Nope.
This incident here is all on DeAngelo as far as I'm concerned and he deserves every bit of the suspension he got from this, if not more. Hopefully he realizes that and can own up to it and become a better person for it. I don't understand anybody who seems to be either trying to absolve this player of blame or citing reprehensible behaviour of game officials in other examples to minimize or excuse DeAngelo's actions in this.
And even if DeAngelo has had rather bad experiences with referees in other hockey games, it does not excuse him for his actions here.
Although this is definitely true in some cases, there is no grounds for this argument in this particular incident here.
In this DeAngelo situation, do you see the linesman shove, punch or hit DeAngelo or do anything aggressive towards him (other than hold him maybe too tightly and too long) before DeAngelo loses his poop and acts like a baby? Nope.
This incident here is all on DeAngelo as far as I'm concerned and he deserves every bit of the suspension he got from this, if not more. Hopefully he realizes that and can own up to it and become a better person for it. I don't understand anybody who seems to be either trying to absolve this player of blame or citing reprehensible behaviour of game officials in other examples to minimize or excuse DeAngelo's actions in this.
And even if DeAngelo has had rather bad experiences with referees in other hockey games, it does not excuse him for his actions here.
Act like a baby? You make it sound like DeAng threw a punch or something. He's telling the linesman to let go and complies with the linesman in directing him to the box. DeAngelo doesn't try to stay in the scrum, ignore the linesman in going to the box, or continue the conflict in anyway, and once the linesman stops trying to hold his arm everything settles down. He's skating away from the scrum but the linesman is still grabbing both his hands for some reason.
What do you think is going to happen when you provoke an angry steroided athlete by restraining their hands needlessly? The linesman didn't even get hurt? If you want to be a bouncer, be prepared for a little conflict. The baby is anyone who gets worked up over these types of things. It's a physical and emotional sport where fighting and stick attacking and cross checking and other acts of violence happen on a regular basis, and one overzealous bouncer gets some love chops on his arms and people are calling for DeAngelos head?!?
An angry Steroided athlete? Haha I don't think I've ever read a post of yours that I've agreed with. Your bouncer comparison is laughable and I think you're trolling at this point.
There is zero need for a player to get physical with a linesmen. Ever.
The Following User Says Thank You to calgaryblood For This Useful Post:
Act like a baby? You make it sound like DeAng threw a punch or something. He's telling the linesman to let go and complies with the linesman in directing him to the box. DeAngelo doesn't try to stay in the scrum, ignore the linesman in going to the box, or continue the conflict in anyway, and once the linesman stops trying to hold his arm everything settles down. He's skating away from the scrum but the linesman is still grabbing both his hands for some reason.
What do you think is going to happen when you provoke an angry steroided athlete by restraining their hands needlessly? The linesman didn't even get hurt? If you want to be a bouncer, be prepared for a little conflict. The baby is anything who gets worked up over these types of things. It's a physical and emotional sport where fighting and stick attacking and cross checking and other acts of violence happen on a regular basis, and one overzealous bouncer gets some love chops on his arms and people are calling for DeAngelos head?!?
This is the thing. You think this linesman restrained DeAngelo's hands needlessly.
DeAngelo was already worked up during the scrum and was looking like he was going to cause more trouble for someone if a ref or linesman didn't grab him. That was why the linesman restrained DeAngelo like he did.
And no, Deangelo didn't throw a punch or smack the linesman, but he shoved the stripes guy significantly twice when the linesman didn't even attack, nor cause DeAngelo to be physically attacked, or do anything to make that sort of aggressive response appropriate, and that was where the hockey player crossed the line and turned it into unacceptable conduct. Yeah, things like this happen, but it still has to be punished and that's the point it seems like you're missing.
Another thing you're not taking into account is that if there are no repercussions for something like this other athletes will also be pushing the envelope trying to get away with similar transgressions or perhaps even escalating these things into something a lot worse to get away with because of no repercussions for something that seems relatively minor.
Like I said, this is on DeAngelo completely for getting suspended.
An angry Steroided athlete? Haha I don't think I've ever read a post of yours that I've agreed with. Your bouncer comparison is laughable and I think you're trolling at this point.
There is zero need for a player to get physical with a linesmen. Ever.
What do you think a bouncer does? I've watched a lot of hockey and honestly, when I see a ref or linesman hold back players, shove them away from scrums and even pin them down, that's exactly what bouncers do.
And nobody is talking about getting physical with a linesman. Nobody got hurt except for a couple feelings around here apparently.
This is the thing. You think this linesman restrained DeAngelo's hands needlessly.
DeAngelo was already worked up during the scrum and was looking like he was going to cause more trouble for someone if a ref or linesman didn't grab him. That was why the linesman restrained DeAngelo like he did.
And no, Deangelo didn't throw a punch or smack the linesman, but he shoved the stripes guy significantly twice when the linesman didn't even attack, nor cause DeAngelo to be physically attacked, or do anything to make that sort of aggressive response appropriate, and that was where the hockey player crossed the line and turned it into unacceptable conduct. Yeah, things like this happen, but it still has to be punished and that's the point it seems like you're missing.
Another thing you're not taking into account is that if there are no repercussions for something like this other athletes will also be pushing the envelope trying to get away with similar transgressions or perhaps even escalating these things into something a lot worse to get away with because of no repercussions for something that seems relatively minor.
Like I said, this is on DeAngelo completely for getting suspended.
This is a philosophical argument from an underground bunker; irrelevant to what actually happens in the observable world. Players aren't these psychotic maniacs who all of a sudden start beating on innocent people just because one guy didn't get suspended. Nobody will take transgressions on linesman just because. That's terribly pessimistic.
I didn't see any shove. I saw DeAng trying to pull his arm free, and by sheer force was the linesman moving from it. I saw no intention whatsoever of hurting or trying to hurt the linesman despite the current state of emotion.
I dont even know what to say. If you were a practicing Satanist or a Witch you could complete the 'Trifecta of Evil.'
Ok, I'm setting myself up here by disclosing this, but I used my referee experience as an asset on my law school admission application It was outright sorcery!
Though in my defence of being an actual human being, Kyle Rheman was my nemesis of sorts as we worked up the ranks and I turned down an offer to go to the Hockey Alberta Referee Development Camp around the same time he went for the big leagues.
Then I saved my soul by becoming a criminal defence lawyer
The Following User Says Thank You to MBates For This Useful Post:
From very, very early on the relationship between Players and Refs is contentious.
At the very outset it is a hostile relationship and thats what has to change.
Nobody gives anybody the benefit of the doubt ever and so everyone is on edge about to explode at the other one at any given moment.
Thats the relationship that has to change and it has to change from the grassroots level up.
Totally agree with this. I was actually very disappointed to see that Hockey Calgary imposed a rule to ban players shaking hands with refs at the end of the game. Sends the exact wrong message and somehow normalizes being so angry with a ref that you might not be able to stop yourself from assaulting them during a handshake.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MBates For This Useful Post:
. I can't count how many times I was taught when I was wearing the stripes not to grab a player's arms the way this guy did.
It was outright sorcery!
