[News] Jagr surpasses Gordie Howe for 3rd all time in points. 1851 points and counting.

[blankall]

The only "what if" comparison that can be made to Gretzky is M. Lemieux. Very similar PPG at 1.883 for Lemieux and 1.921 for Gretzky. Lemieux really struggled with injury and cancer. Obviously, durability is a huge part of the game when you are comparing career totals. It still would have been really cool to have another player in the Gretzky neighbourhood for point total, and Lemieux is the only one that ever had a real crack at that.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_career.html

There's the adjusted points that hockey-reference has. Gretzky sits at 2475 in first place. Jagr is third with 2075.

If I am reading that correctly it includes WHA numbers. Not a perfect science but take those away and imagine 3 more nhl seasons for jagr and things get a bit more interesting. Don't get me wrong, Gretzky's numbers are just rediculous in his early years,but definitely kudos to Jagr for playing at the highest level for so long.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

It's still Gretzky > everyone else, but Jagr is awesome nonetheless.

Maybe I'm just a fan for milestones, but looking at Gretzky's career stats frustrates me. 1963 assists, 2857 points. Dude was basically a PPG player right to the end, in the height of the dead puck era too. You couldn't pound out just a couple more seasons and hit 2000 assists and 3000 points?? He was at 894 goals too, 3 more seasons and he could've had the mythical 1000 goals!

Crazy being that close to unheard of milestones like that, and being productive enough to still easily meet those #'s, but instead just hanging them up.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Maybe I'm just a fan for milestones, but looking at Gretzky's career stats frustrates me. 1963 assists, 2857 points. Dude was basically a PPG player right to the end, in the height of the dead puck era too. You couldn't pound out just a couple more seasons and hit 2000 assists and 3000 points?? He was at 894 goals too, 3 more seasons and he could've had the mythical 1000 goals!

Crazy being that close to unheard of milestones like that, and being productive enough to still easily meet those #'s, but instead just hanging them up.

He retired in '99

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Had he not earned that right before?

Ummm... no, not so much. I mean... he may be the second all-time leading scorer but are you willing to say that he is the second-best player of all time? I would *maybe* slip him into the top-ten but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put him in the same class as Howe (or Gretzky or Lemieux or Orr or Hull or Richard or Lafleur or...). Guys who can play until they are in adult diapers are not necessarily great just because they outlasted others in their class.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

So what award will Jagr be named after when he retires?

Longevity/lifetime achievement?
Best European player?
Best hockey hair?

Best Mullet (shared with Ryan Smyth ((the Smyagr))).
Biggest Euro D-Bag (shared with Ovechkin ((the Jagchkin))).
Best Second Fiddle award (the MarioJR). Alternatively, (the Jagancis).
Best Old Waste of Cap Space Award (The Jaginla or the 'Iginagr' or the 'Jagelios').

[curves2000]

I know many posters, fans and lots of media types keep bringing up the KHL but there are valid reasons why he went.

I have read several interviews and seen other articles that mentioned Jagr was just flat out burned out. The pressure to perform, especially in NY took a toll on him. He was mentally exhausted and made the decision to go to the KHL so he could be closer to his parents in his native Czech Republic.

After 3 years of playing in the KHL and learning new training methods, getting more in tune with his Orthodox religion and wanting to play in front of full arena's, he decided he wanted to come back.

He regained his fire and nobody predicted anything close to this type of performance several years later in the NHL. Almost everybody thought this would be a risky 1 year experiment and that would be it.

The guy trains harder now, has adapted his physical frame for added speed and appears to be having more fun than ever.

The KHL years are what has allowed Jagr to continue playing into 2017 and playing effective hockey. If he hadn't gone, who knows, maybe he would have headed over to Europe to close out his career at the age of 39/40.

Special player

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Ummm... no, not so much. I mean... he may be the second all-time leading scorer but are you willing to say that he is the second-best player of all time? I would *maybe* slip him into the top-ten but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put him in the same class as Howe (or Gretzky or Lemieux or Orr or Hull or Richard or Lafleur or...). Guys who can play until they are in adult diapers are not necessarily great just because they outlasted others in their class.

You literally just said he's not as good as Howe, who played into his 50s. Did you even think before you spouted that drivel? Not even a top ten player? Child please. He's easily better than Hull, Richard, and Lafleur. You can argue about guys like Gretzky and Lemieux for various reasons (personally I think he's a shade below those two), but in my mind, there are few who are on his level.

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Best Mullet (shared with Ryan Smyth ((the Smyagr))).
Biggest Euro D-Bag (shared with Ovechkin ((the Jagchkin))).
Best Second Fiddle award (the MarioJR). Alternatively, (the Jagancis).
Best Old Waste of Cap Space Award (The Jaginla or the 'Iginagr' or the 'Jagelios').

Jesus, did he sleep with your girlfriend or something?

I don't think he'll take the D-bag award though, I think you're winning it easily with these sorts of posts.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

He retired in '99

Yeah, but I don't think that was his actual plan. I'm just going off memory, but I recall watching an extended one-on-one interview he did before the start of the 98-99 season where he talked about wanting and feeling like he could play for a few more seasons yet.

The Rangers were bad back then, and Gretzky got injured for a decent stretch that year - perhaps 10 or so games - where the Rangers went on a winning streak during that time. Stemming from that, I recall some rumblings in the New York and hockey media that the Rangers were perhaps better off without Gretzky. Then suddenly he just retires after that season.

I've always wondered if he took those comments to heart, if they insulted him or shook his confidence in himself, and he just decided "screw it, I'm done". Or perhaps that latest injury scared him and he decided it wasn't worth it anymore, who knows. I just always found it odd how quickly he went from a veteran PPG player with a desire to play for several more seasons, to just retiring a few months later. Especially in light of the speculation about the Rangers being better without him while he was injured.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Yeah, but I don't think that was his actual plan. I'm just going off memory, but I recall watching an extended one-on-one interview he did before the start of the 98-99 season where he talked about wanting and feeling like he could play for a few more seasons yet.

The Rangers were bad back then, and Gretzky got injured for a decent stretch that year - perhaps 10 or so games - where the Rangers went on a winning streak during that time. Stemming from that, I recall some rumblings in the New York and hockey media that the Rangers were perhaps better off without Gretzky. Then suddenly he just retires after that season.

I've always wondered if he took those comments to heart, if they insulted him or shook his confidence in himself, and he just decided "screw it, I'm done". Or perhaps that latest injury scared him and he decided it wasn't worth it anymore, who knows. I just always found it odd how quickly he went from a veteran PPG player with a desire to play for several more seasons, to just retiring a few months later. Especially in light of the speculation about the Rangers being better without him while he was injured.

He certainly didn't give much notice. It wasn't until a day or two before his last game that he announced it would be his last game. However, the media had been speculating for months that Gretzky was going to retire. There was an unofficial Gretzky retirement tour. He was even cheered at his last game in Calgary, they chanted his name in a positive way at the dome. Everybody knew he was retiring from probably close to Christmas and on.

Quite simply, he just wasn't scoring anymore. He still put up assists, but he finished the year with only 9 goals. He was unhappy with his level of play. He could see his play declining over the years but he saw a sharper decline during that last year. He wanted to go out still happy with his play and not be embarrassed that he was hanging on for too long.

[Sainters7]

Yep I could see that being the case as well. Whatever the reason, I would've loved to see him play one more year and at least hit the 2000 assists mark. 1963 assists is obviously still an otherworldly, eye-popping number, but I like round number milestones like that. Especially such an unheard of one like 2000 assists. Whenever I look at his final stats I just can't help but think "man, just a couple more years!"

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

You literally just said he's not as good as Howe, who played into his 50s. Did you even think before you spouted that drivel? Not even a top ten player? Child please. He's easily better than Hull, Richard, and Lafleur. You can argue about guys like Gretzky and Lemieux for various reasons (personally I think he's a shade below those two), but in my mind, there are few who are on his level.

I agree with your general sentiment but I don't know how you can so confidently say he's better than a guy like Rocket Richard, arguably greatest player of his generation and IMO more than just a great player, an icon of Canadian history.

Jagr is undoubtedly a more skilled guy as the eras are different. But curious as to how you can come to this conclusion with such certainty. For me, guys like Lafleur and would be his comparables.

Jagr is a great player and I'm thrilled to have seen him play but I also get a little sad when a legend like Howe sees his numbers eclipsed.

[Huntingwhale]

This is such a cool record to be broken, and probably the 'biggest' record we'll see broken in quite some time. The all time points, assist, goals, will likely never be touched. So seeing Jagr move into 2nd overall in points is something that is pretty cool to see.

What a time to be alive.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

This is such a cool record to be broken, and probably the 'biggest' record we'll see broken in quite some time. The all time points, assist, goals, will likely never be touched. So seeing Jagr move into 2nd overall in points is something that is pretty cool to see.

What a time to be alive.

Unless Crosby or McDavid end up having exceptionally long careers, I doubt we ever see someone surpass Jagr's points.

It'll be interesting to watch where Ovechkin ends up on the all time goals list though.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Unless Crosby or McDavid end up having exceptionally long careers, I doubt we ever see someone surpass Jagr's points.

It'll be interesting to watch where Ovechkin ends up on the all time goals list though.

See, and this is what annoys me about these records, no one is ever going to touch them again.

Gretzky's records are going to sit at the top for all time.

And thats all well and good but it also indicates to me that they're worthless.

Theres been so many changes and moving pieces that those stats cant really be compared to anyone anymore, and vice versa.

Its like its time to start a new board.

[Calgary4LIfe]

It is arguable who is the best - Gretzky or Lemieux. Both sides have solid points.

I think Jagr definitely belongs in that 'next class'. I think Jagr is better than Messier, for instance. Is he as good as Howe? I would place Howe and Orr higher up. Lafleur? Definitely better than him. Richard was great, but Jagr I would say belongs ahead of him.

It is difficult to compare players against players. Just look at the "Gretzky vs Lemieux" - they played against and with each other for years, and they are tough to compare. Trying to compare players in different eras is much tougher.

Arguments are always subjective. Right now, you have Jagr (well, after tonight anyways) as the 2nd best player in the history of the game. I definitely drop him some, but I think he is top 5.

Gretzky/Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Jagr

I think he leads that next group of players. The biggest argument I think is if Lidstrom or Jagr should be ranked 1st on that next grouping. For me, it is Jagr quite easily.

Unfortunately, there is no possible way to rank players. The only ranking that is not subjective is scoring. Everything else is subjective. Argue away I guess. I think it will be difficult for anyone to prove my ranking wrong to me, and I bet I would fail just as badly proving that my ranking is better than yours. So, how about we stop arguing about it, and focus on this:

Jagr is about to drop Mark "Dirty Elbows" Messier. I think we can all agree that Jagr is the better player.

[CroFlames]

I think the very tippy top tier of hockey player there are 4 players: Wayne, Mario, Orr and Howe.

Then there's a 2nd tier

Jagr, Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, I daresay Iginla, Selanne, Hull, Lidstrom, Coffey, Thornton and a few others make up the 2nd tier of player. Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid likely make this list one day.

[StrykerSteve]

Gretzky retired with 62 points in 70 games. Although still a very strong season, It was his only season in which he scored at less than a PPG clip. Just bonkers. His records will never be broken, unless the NHL drastically ch ages something to increase scoring, like moving to 4 on 4 play or bigger nets.

His craziest stat though, is in 93/94, he scored 130 points and was still a -25. That's crazy, lol.

[JiriHrdina]

I never watched Howe so tough to judge, but is Jagr actually not a pretty fair comparison.
Which is to say - both of them achieved gaudy numbers through longevity and not by having out of this world single seasons.

I also wonder how much we under-rate Crosby. The fact he is never discussed is interesting to me given all he's accomplished and his elite level in all facets of the game.

Is he top 10? Top 20? Where does he fit in.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I never watched Howe so tough to judge, but is Jagr actually not a pretty fair comparison.
Which is to say - both of them achieved gaudy numbers through longevity and not by having out of this world single seasons.

I also wonder how much we under-rate Crosby. The fact he is never discussed is interesting to me given all he's accomplished and his elite level in all facets of the game.

Is he top 10? Top 20? Where does he fit in.

His reach is limited by the years he was suffering through concussions. If not for those years, he'd be top ten, maybe five. As it stands, I'd say top 15. But he still has so much time ahead of him, can easily move into the top 5 when all is said and done.