Alberta Politics Thread

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

Oh my God...you have to be the third or fourth person to trot this nonsense out.



Yup. 2011 and 2012. Nothing has changed since then. Or has it? No. Surely not!!



Nothing like being definitive right?

Sure, nothing much has changed right? Everything in Alberta is pretty likely the same as it was in 2011 and 2012?

No changes at all? Nothing?

All good, sorry for ever doubting. Oh! And I apologize for using my brain for thinking rather than trotting out tired old articles using outdated information about statistics that were used before....wait for it....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

You're right! Everyone carry on with your regularly scheduled...whatever.

I really don't know either way. Is that economist from the UofC completely wrong? Taxes have increased, we all know that, but is the tax burden in Alberta no longer lower than it is in other provinces?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I really don't know either way. Is that economist from the UofC completely wrong? Taxes have increased, we all know that, but is the tax burden in Alberta no longer lower than it is in other provinces?

For whom? Thats a liquid question.

Are you single? A Family? Kids? No kids? 10 Kids? A business? Small Business? Billionaire? Dual Income? Single Income?

For whom?

Saying any area has the 'lowest tax burden' based on outdated data of dubious origin without factoring in any other parts of the actual equation makes that a meaningless statement.

What rebates are they entitled to? Do they keep all of their income within a corporation and thus have 0 income and collect Social Benefits?

Which is probably why he threw it out with ass-covering qualifiers.

Not to mention, that statement was made....before....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

Or basically: Pre NDP.

Now...the obvious question: "Do Albertans have the lowest Tax Burden in 2017 (coming up) based on current factors?"

Ask the same Economist the same question based on current data right now and I very sincerely doubt you'll get the same answer.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

Now...the obvious question: "Do Albertans have the lowest Tax Burden in 2017 (coming up) based on current factors?"

I don't know. That's why I asked. You know more about this than I do.

For example, corporate taxes have increased here, but that doesn't mean they are now higher than they are elsewhere in the country. But maybe they are.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't know. That's why I asked. You know more about this than I do.

For example, corporate taxes have increased here, but that doesn't mean they are now higher than they are elsewhere in the country. But maybe they are.

I dont at all mean to attack you but this is the issue. Having some Economist make some ass-covered non-definitive statement using ancient data making half-assed comments and then having people use that as some sort of rock-solid evidence is insane.

I mean, I'd expect no less from the NDP but most people using their own brain should be able to realize that this data from 2011/12 is somewhat...um...irrelevant to...you know...real life...that thing thats happening right now in front of their eyes.

And its lazy. Which might be the worst.

"Albertans have the lowest Tax Burden in Canada!"

What does that even mean?

Who? Small Businesses with under 5 employees? Seniors with dementia? Oil Sheikhs who love to ski? Multi-Billion dollar Oil Conglomerates? Mom and Pop's Ice Cream Shop?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont at all mean to attack you but this is the issue. Having some Economist make some ass-covered non-definitive statement using ancient data making half-assed comments and then having people use that as some sort of rock-solid evidence is insane.

I mean, I'd expect no less from the NDP but most people using their own brain should be able to realize that this data from 2011/12 is somewhat...um...irrelevant to...you know...real life...that thing thats happening right now in front of their eyes.

And its lazy. Which might be the worst.

"Albertans have the lowest Tax Burden in Canada!"

What does that even mean?

Who? Small Businesses with under 5 employees? Seniors with dementia? Oil Sheikhs who love to ski? Multi-Billion dollar Oil Conglomerates? Mom and Pop's Ice Cream Shop?

By all means, provide a source that you think is more current and more accurate. None of the posters decrying Alberta's rapid decent into Soviet economic collapse have done so so far.

Even this sketchy report (https://www.fraserinstitute.org/arti...ly-set-to-grow) from the Fraser Institute (yuck) has to bend over backwards to come to the conclusion that Alberta's tax burden may, in 2017, be only second lowest (to Saskatchewan). Oh the humanity!

[Slava]

Part of my irritation with the carbon tax, although not specific to it, is the idea that "it's only $500" from the people who are getting full rebates or rebates that exceed their expected costs. That seems to be a somewhat common refrain, and the reason its frustrating is because all of these tax increases are "only $50-$100 a month" kind of thing. It's not specifically the NDP or the province either. But we hear this from the city, from the province and from the feds and as the old saying goes its all coming out of the same wallet. There is only one taxpayer.

So while this is "only $500" you add it to all the other "only $500" increases from the three levels of government and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Makarov

By all means, provide a source that you think is more current and more accurate. None of the posters decrying Alberta's rapid decent into Soviet economic collapse have done so so far.

Nicely done. You pull out old data that is meaningless in today's environment, get called out for it, and your only rebuttal is to attempt to shift the burden of proof rather than go back and support your argument properly.

Even this sketchy report (https://www.fraserinstitute.org/arti...ly-set-to-grow) from the Fraser Institute (yuck) has to bend over backwards to come to the conclusion that Alberta's tax burden may, in 2017, be only second lowest (to Saskatchewan). Oh the humanity!

Where does this article say that Alberta may only be "second lowest"? It says only that Saskatchewan will be earlier, not that only Saskatchewan will be earlier. Don't make unsubstantiated inferences and try to pass them off as fact.

FWIW, The Fraser Institute argued that for 2016, the last province to celebrate "Tax Freedom Day" will be Newfoundland and Labrador, on June 14. We obviously don't know from either of these stories where each province will lie in 2017, but it is clear that if Alberta's 2017 date gets pushed to mid June, we could be anywhere from second to middle of the pack.

And that is just 2017. We can only hope that Notley won't just keep making things worse as 2017 pushes into 2018... Oh, wait! We already know she is!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Slava

Part of my irritation with the carbon tax, although not specific to it, is the idea that "it's only $500" from the people who are getting full rebates or rebates that exceed their expected costs. That seems to be a somewhat common refrain, and the reason its frustrating is because all of these tax increases are "only $50-$100 a month" kind of thing. It's not specifically the NDP or the province either. But we hear this from the city, from the province and from the feds and as the old saying goes its all coming out of the same wallet. There is only one taxpayer.

So while this is "only $500" you add it to all the other "only $500" increases from the three levels of government and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

A few hundred dollars here, a few hundred to Trudeau, a few hundred because of Trump. And wages aren't rising much. Death by a thousand cuts.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Slava

Part of my irritation with the carbon tax, although not specific to it, is the idea that "it's only $500" from the people who are getting full rebates or rebates that exceed their expected costs. That seems to be a somewhat common refrain, and the reason its frustrating is because all of these tax increases are "only $50-$100 a month" kind of thing. It's not specifically the NDP or the province either. But we hear this from the city, from the province and from the feds and as the old saying goes its all coming out of the same wallet. There is only one taxpayer.

So while this is "only $500" you add it to all the other "only $500" increases from the three levels of government and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

Ya it's only $500 this year. Next year it's only another $400. The year after interest rates skyrocket so another $4000 annually. The year after that cpp contributions increase (2019) etc etc etc

Disposable income decreases each year for canadians. Buissness expenses go up due to taxes and wages are stagnant.

[CliffFletcher]

The state of denial about the false economy this province has been operating under for 20 years is remarkable. When it comes to taxes and public services, Albertans are collectively like the 34 year old welder in Fort Mac who made 130k, had a 600k mortgage, a new truck every three years, two snowmobiles, a boat in Sicamouse, and trips to Mexico and Vegas every year. And thought this was perfectly normal and likely to last until he retired.

Party's over for the taxpayers in this province. We'll have to start funding the world class schools, roads, and health care we expect the same way everyone else in the world who isn't fortunate enough to enjoy billions in energy royalty subsidies does - through income and consumption taxes. The only way Alberta can remain a low-tax jurisdiction is for cuts to government services that would make the early Klein years look like Denmark. Good luck getting those kind of bone-deep cuts passed in a province with so many young families and soccer moms who vote.

Want tax rates like Alabama? Expect the public health care and education quality of Alabama.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Locke

Oh my God...you have to be the third or fourth person to trot this nonsense out.



Yup. 2011 and 2012. Nothing has changed since then. Or has it? No. Surely not!!



Nothing like being definitive right?

Sure, nothing much has changed right? Everything in Alberta is pretty likely the same as it was in 2011 and 2012?

No changes at all? Nothing?

All good, sorry for ever doubting. Oh! And I apologize for using my brain for thinking rather than trotting out tired old articles using outdated information about statistics that were used before....wait for it....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

You're right! Everyone carry on with your regularly scheduled...whatever.

Prior to the Carbon tax the report is reasonably reflective. Personal taxes were increased for those earning more that 125k. Property taxes have gone up similarly in most jurisdictions. So relative to the ROC for personal taxes that report is accurate.

In business taxes it's much harder to say. We had a 25% corporate tax rate and now have a 27% rate. This is an 8% increase which if you look at the chart and assume all of the burden is corporate tax wouldn't change our position.

So as of today stating we have the 3rd lowest corporate tax burdan and the lowest personal taxes is probably still correct. Once our sales tax goes the study would need to be redone. What that really shows is Alberta for 20 years has tried to have the same level of services as other provinces without the tax base to support it. And without the high price of oil this is not possible.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The state of denial about the false economy this province has been operating under for 20 years is remarkable. When it comes to taxes and public services, Albertans are collectively like the 34 year old welder in Fort Mac who made 130k, had a 600k mortgage, a new truck every three years, two snowmobiles, a boat in Sicamouse, and trips to Mexico and Vegas every year. And thought this was perfectly normal and likely to last until he retired.

Party's over for the taxpayers in this province. We'll have to start funding the world class schools, roads, and health care we expect the same way everyone else in the world who isn't fortunate enough to enjoy billions in energy royalty subsidies does - through income and consumption taxes. The only way Alberta can remain a low-tax jurisdiction is for cuts to government services that would make the early Klein years look like Denmark. Good luck getting those kind of bone-deep cuts passed in a province with so many young families and soccer moms who vote.

Want tax rates like Alabama? Expect the public health care and education quality of Alabama.

I'm an early 30s O&G worker... who is making less than half what I used to make, but I'm lucky to have a job right now so I can keep my house and feed my kid. I do not have any of those toys/vacations you listed above, and I never did, but I am certainly feeling a lot of pain in the wallet these days.

And I agree with everything you've said above. Taxes and spending won't be going down here. But not just because of young families- also because of retired people who want to keep living the standard they have been (or higher, they do need more and more services like healthcare), but those are the most vocal ones about not paying any more evil taxes.

But in my personal case, when crap hits the fan here w/ provincial debt etc, there is nothing except "family" keeping me here in Alberta, because when the economy and market for jobs opens up here it does so in the rest of the world too. So I would be gone to Saskatchewan, USA, Middle East etc long before I can contribute into paying off the debt accrued during these down economic, NDP years.

On the other hand, I may never find such a good job again, and be burdened with higher taxes for the rest of my life and the inability to ever "get ahead" due to the past 2 years, and the next 2.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Makarov

By all means, provide a source that you think is more current and more accurate. None of the posters decrying Alberta's rapid decent into Soviet economic collapse have done so so far.

Even this sketchy report (https://www.fraserinstitute.org/arti...ly-set-to-grow) from the Fraser Institute (yuck) has to bend over backwards to come to the conclusion that Alberta's tax burden may, in 2017, be only second lowest (to Saskatchewan). Oh the humanity!

The real concern is the direction we're heading. We might be middle of the pack as far as corporate taxes go. But it doesn't take much to stop investment money flowing into Alberta...

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...-ndp-tax-plan/

The issue of tax leakage—companies and high earners adjusting their financial affairs and accounting entries to shift money out of higher-tax jurisdictions—must be considered. Moreover, at the provincial level this concern is heightened, as firms or individuals operating in several provinces have greater ease to shift taxable income across provincial borders than national borders. Alberta, being a low-tax jurisdiction within the federation, has been the recipient and beneficiary of much of these interprovincial tax shifts up to now. I don’t expect Albertans to start shifting their own money out of the province, but I do expect the inflow from other provinces to slow to a trickle since the tax differential will no longer be as large. Tax leakage is not an all-or-nothing thing; not everyone has the ability to shift income and most firms have only a limited scope for shifting. But it doesn’t take much shifting for it to matter. A quick example shows why.
Imagine there is $6 of corporate income being taxed at 10 per cent, for a tax revenue haul of 60 cents. If the tax rate goes up to 12 per cent, it only takes $1 of those $6 being shifted out of Alberta for the tax change to yield no net increase in revenue. ($5 times 12 per cent leaves you with the same 60 cents of tax revenue you started with.) The reason? When a dollar is shifted away, you lose the whole 12 per cent, and it takes a lot of dollars to stick around to pay the incremental two per cent to make up the difference. The best evidence suggests that provincial corporate taxation in Canada is quite susceptible to income shifting and tax leakage

The other direction we're heading is the most debt in the entire country second only to Ontario which has the highest debt in the whole freaking sub sovereign world. Who's going to invest in that? You have to be a knuckle head to enjoy our current status as "one of the lowest tax burdens in Canada".

[Kjesse]

Pretty good letter to the editor in the Calgary Herald yesterday. I've met Don Koenig and last year won some money in his hockey pool. He's a nice guy:

Our provincial NDP government is decimating Alberta small business.

I just calculated that the carbon levy of one dollar per gigajoule of natural gas will cost my business an extra $2,755 in 2017. That is before the anticipated increase in distribution costs that I’m sure will come with the gigajoule upcharge.

Furthermore, all my products are delivered twice weekly by trucks fuelled by diesel. Diesel fuel is being levied an extra 5.35 cents per litre. Consequently, this extra cost will be passed on to my business. Another extra cost I will not know until I receive my first invoice in January.

The minimum wage increase in October and the upcoming $1.40 an hour increase in October 2017 will cost our company an additional $27,624 next year.

Based on the above, the carbon tax and minimum wage have increased our costs $32,379 for 2017. These are only the costs that we know about at this time. We don’t know yet what additional costs will arise as a result of the carbon tax.

We are not a small company, yet not large enough to absorb these extra costs, especially when we are currently experiencing double-digit sales decreases.

How can small business remain positive about the future in Alberta when we are trying to survive the present?

Don Koenig, Calgary

Don Koenig is president of Humpty’s Restaurants International Inc.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Nicely done. You pull out old data that is meaningless in today's environment, get called out for it, and your only rebuttal is to attempt to shift the burden of proof rather than go back and support your argument properly.



Where does this article say that Alberta may only be "second lowest"? It says only that Saskatchewan will be earlier, not that only Saskatchewan will be earlier. Don't make unsubstantiated inferences and try to pass them off as fact.

FWIW, The Fraser Institute argued that for 2016, the last province to celebrate "Tax Freedom Day" will be Newfoundland and Labrador, on June 14. We obviously don't know from either of these stories where each province will lie in 2017, but it is clear that if Alberta's 2017 date gets pushed to mid June, we could be anywhere from second to middle of the pack.

And that is just 2017. We can only hope that Notley won't just keep making things worse as 2017 pushes into 2018... Oh, wait! We already know she is!

Maybe you and Locke outta be economics professors at u of c.

Doesn't seem to be that hard.

[IliketoPuck]

Don should just accept that it isn't his right to make a profit in Alberta anymore.

We are now the land of opportunity for socialistic experimentation.

Equality for all. Equity be damned.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Maybe you and Locke outta be economics professors at u of c.

Doesn't seem to be that hard.

Neither low effort trolling, judging by your post history.

Do you ever plan to add anything of value, anywhere on this forum?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Pretty good letter to the editor in the Calgary Herald yesterday. I've met Don Koenig and last year won some money in his hockey pool. He's a nice guy:

Our provincial NDP government is decimating Alberta small business.

I just calculated that the carbon levy of one dollar per gigajoule of natural gas will cost my business an extra $2,755 in 2017. That is before the anticipated increase in distribution costs that I’m sure will come with the gigajoule upcharge.

Furthermore, all my products are delivered twice weekly by trucks fuelled by diesel. Diesel fuel is being levied an extra 5.35 cents per litre. Consequently, this extra cost will be passed on to my business. Another extra cost I will not know until I receive my first invoice in January.

The minimum wage increase in October and the upcoming $1.40 an hour increase in October 2017 will cost our company an additional $27,624 next year.

Based on the above, the carbon tax and minimum wage have increased our costs $32,379 for 2017. These are only the costs that we know about at this time. We don’t know yet what additional costs will arise as a result of the carbon tax.

We are not a small company, yet not large enough to absorb these extra costs, especially when we are currently experiencing double-digit sales decreases.

How can small business remain positive about the future in Alberta when we are trying to survive the present?

Don Koenig, Calgary

Don Koenig is president of Humpty’s Restaurants International Inc.

Did you notice what parts he left out?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The state of denial about the false economy this province has been operating under for 20 years is remarkable. When it comes to taxes and public services, Albertans are collectively like the 34 year old welder in Fort Mac who made 130k, had a 600k mortgage, a new truck every three years, two snowmobiles, a boat in Sicamouse, and trips to Mexico and Vegas every year. And thought this was perfectly normal and likely to last until he retired.

Party's over for the taxpayers in this province. We'll have to start funding the world class schools, roads, and health care we expect the same way everyone else in the world who isn't fortunate enough to enjoy billions in energy royalty subsidies does - through income and consumption taxes. The only way Alberta can remain a low-tax jurisdiction is for cuts to government services that would make the early Klein years look like Denmark. Good luck getting those kind of bone-deep cuts passed in a province with so many young families and soccer moms who vote.

Want tax rates like Alabama? Expect the public health care and education quality of Alabama.

I don't completely agree with this though. People might live the high life when times are good, but they also cut back when they're not. The welder who was making $130k a couple years ago and took a couple trips probably isn't doing that anymore. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that our government could do some similar things. The government doesn't get carte blanche regarding spending just because we are increasing taxes.

The other thing to consider is that most people realise that we need to pay more taxes and rely less on fossil fuels. That isn't an issue. Do we need to make that change at the bottom of the business cycle and make it that much more painful?

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The state of denial about the false economy this province has been operating under for 20 years is remarkable. When it comes to taxes and public services, Albertans are collectively like the 34 year old welder in Fort Mac who made 130k, had a 600k mortgage, a new truck every three years, two snowmobiles, a boat in Sicamouse, and trips to Mexico and Vegas every year. And thought this was perfectly normal and likely to last until he retired.

Party's over for the taxpayers in this province. We'll have to start funding the world class schools, roads, and health care we expect the same way everyone else in the world who isn't fortunate enough to enjoy billions in energy royalty subsidies does - through income and consumption taxes. The only way Alberta can remain a low-tax jurisdiction is for cuts to government services that would make the early Klein years look like Denmark. Good luck getting those kind of bone-deep cuts passed in a province with so many young families and soccer moms who vote.

Want tax rates like Alabama? Expect the public health care and education quality of Alabama.

This type of thinking's the problem. We should just be status quo. We will have to be like everyone else. We can't develop our economy and be one step ahead. Party's over right? We should all just give up or move. Then you have the example of the one welder and that's how everybody thinks. That $130,000 yearly income is the norm, it's how everybody up there thinks. Paint all albertans with the same brush.

How sad. Alberta is losing it's advantage because of this type of thinking. It's too bad.

Like the last poster said and it needs repeating. Equality for all, equity be damned.

Fyi alberta's health care wait times are already among the worst in canada even though they receive the second most funding after newfoundland.