CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Table 5

One thing to keep in mind though even if we are bidding, is that the Olympic selection won't be made till 2019. So If the plan is hinging on the Olympics, that's almost 3 years away before that's confirmed and they can commence with construction. And of course it's no guarantee, so if we lose, it's back to square one.

This thing is probably going to get dragged out for a good part of another decade.

Of course the Flames could just buy some land and build an arena on their own, like any other business would be expected to...

What are you, a communist?

[nik-]

These developments warm the cockles of my heart.

Rewarding that half assed plan with a billion taxpayer dollars basically would have been a war crime.

A literal war crime.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The thing to keep in mind is that the City of Calgary does have a plan for West Village, and had one before CalgaryNEXT came around. It doesn't need a stadium to happen. And considering what CMLC did for East Village, I trust their work much more than what the Flames scrapped together.

Do you consider subsidizing chosen builders (via favourable land sale contracts) to the detriment of private developers operating elsewhere in the inner city a successful model to emulate? How about purchasing land using public dollars and selling at a loss? I'm not sure why the EV keeps getting cited as a successful project when it's not nearly complete. It may well end up the same way as the Bridges.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I've argued before that I think no arena/stadium makes WV more likely to happen, not less. This is because I just don't think the scheme with CalgaryNEXT will pencil out. A redevelopment without it just seems so much more financially viable with something like a CRL.

You keep saying this, but do you have a pro forma to share? I'd like to build out the two scenarios (WV with CalgaryNext and without) when I have time.

Also, the mayor's half baked plan involves a lipstick on a pig reno of McMahon that maybe buys 15 years of additional useful life - the eventual replacement of it still needs to be dealt with. I know most politicians are short term thinkers focused on their next election, Nenshi included, but this "plan B" option can't be looked at in isolation. It simply makes sense to capitalize on the economies of scale from a combined facility when both are coming up for replacement at the same time.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Zarley

You keep saying this, but do you have a pro forma to share? I'd like to build out the two scenarios (WV with CalgaryNext and without) when I have time.

Also, the mayor's half baked plan involves a lipstick on a pig reno of McMahon that maybe buys 15 years of additional useful life - the eventual replacement of it still needs to be dealt with. I know most politicians are short term thinkers focused on their next election, Nenshi included, but this "plan B" option can't be looked at in isolation. It simply makes sense to capitalize on the economies of scale from a combined facility when both are coming up for replacement at the same time.

Spending $80 million or whatever renovating McMahon stadium would be a massive waste of money. I would seriously have to question the research anyone has put into renovating old stadiums for anyone in city hall to think this would be a good idea.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Spending $80 million or whatever renovating McMahon stadium would be a massive waste of money. I would seriously have to question the research anyone has put into renovating old stadiums for anyone in city hall to think this would be a good idea.

Agreed there is a reason why teams simply build new Stadiums.

Old stadium could be renovated, however that is only a short term solution.

A new stadium is required at some point..

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

These developments warm the cockles of my heart.

Rewarding that half assed plan with a billion taxpayer dollars basically would have been a war crime.

A literal war crime.

literal?

You may want to google war crime.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Reminder: The Grey Cup just had to mark down tickets 50% or more, or give them away with two awful pies from Pizza Pizza, in one of Canada's newest stadiums. I get some people desperately want a new home for the Stamps, but it's unjustifiable sorry to say. I'm gonna keep hammering this one into the ground, but the CFL is a TV sport now and the live gate doesn't mean much. The Stamps couldn't average more than 28,000 with arguably the greatest CFL team ever. New stadium will never, ever be worth it financially.

Fixing up McMahon doesn't have to be that expensive, if you just reduced capacity, added more washrooms and concourse space to the current stadium most people would be cool with it. 95% of people on this board want the arena and don't really care about the Stamps having somewhere newer or nicer to play. Harsh? You bet. Reality usually is. But Edmonton's stadium isn't any younger than McMahon and I don't hear them begging for a new stadium. Take the arena, and enjoy it. Because pushing too hard for CalgaryNEXT may lead to neither happening. Keep the focus on what the majority want, and not on what a few hope to get.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Reminder: The Grey Cup just had to mark down tickets 50% or more, or give them away with two awful pies from Pizza Pizza, in one of Canada's newest stadiums. I get some people desperately want a new home for the Stamps, but it's unjustifiable sorry to say. I'm gonna keep hammering this one into the ground, but the CFL is a TV sport now and the live gate doesn't mean much. The Stamps couldn't average more than 28,000 with arguably the greatest CFL team ever. New stadium will never, ever be worth it financially.

Fixing up McMahon doesn't have to be that expensive, if you just reduced capacity, added more washrooms and concourse space to the current stadium most people would be cool with it. 95% of people on this board want the arena and don't really care about the Stamps having somewhere newer or nicer to play. Harsh? You bet. Reality usually is. But Edmonton's stadium isn't any younger than McMahon and I don't hear them begging for a new stadium. Take the arena, and enjoy it. Because pushing too hard for CalgaryNEXT may lead to neither happening. Keep the focus on what the majority want, and not on what a few hope to get.

I hear what you're saying but using apathetic Toronto as a reason why the CFL doesn't work in say Calgary isn't a really good choice.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But it's fans as a whole, not just Toronto fans although Toronto fans are a terrible example (though to be fair they packed BMO Field for the MLS Cup). Live football is right up there with baseball as the worst live sport to go to. It's a made for TV sport, you spend 3 hours at a live sport to see the equivalent of 15 minutes of actual game action. Most people spend more time in their commute to the game then they do watching actual game action occur. The rest is huddles, pre and post snap stuff, and commercials. Nevermind being able to buy a 12 pack at home for the equivalent of 3 beers at McMahon. Even the infallible NFL is seeing swaths of empty seats at its games now, something you wouldn't see a decade ago. A CFL stadium isn't worth it, and going with CalgaryNEXT makes no sense from a city perspective. They can spend $200 million on their own for 24/7/365 public access facility, or they can give the Stamps $200 million and turn that public access facility into more of a 24/6/310 situation. Seems kinda obvious from a city perspective which one is better for the benefit of the entire general public.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hear what you're saying but using apathetic Toronto as a reason why the CFL doesn't work in say Calgary isn't a really good choice.

Calgary didn't sell out the Western Final this year. Look, I love the CFL but there is no way we need a new massive football stadium.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Calgary didn't sell out the Western Final this year. Look, I love the CFL but there is no way we need a new massive football stadium.

I don't think anyone said "massive". The CFL is going with smaller stadiums. Which would be a much more attractive venue if they are nice. I do think a lot of empty seats at McMahon are due to the venue. I know I had seasons tickets (good ones) and that the quality of the venue was a big reason I stopped going.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Reminder: The Grey Cup just had to mark down tickets 50% or more, or give them away with two awful pies from Pizza Pizza, in one of Canada's newest stadiums. I get some people desperately want a new home for the Stamps, but it's unjustifiable sorry to say. I'm gonna keep hammering this one into the ground, but the CFL is a TV sport now and the live gate doesn't mean much. The Stamps couldn't average more than 28,000 with arguably the greatest CFL team ever. New stadium will never, ever be worth it financially.

Fixing up McMahon doesn't have to be that expensive, if you just reduced capacity, added more washrooms and concourse space to the current stadium most people would be cool with it. 95% of people on this board want the arena and don't really care about the Stamps having somewhere newer or nicer to play. Harsh? You bet. Reality usually is. But Edmonton's stadium isn't any younger than McMahon and I don't hear them begging for a new stadium. Take the arena, and enjoy it. Because pushing too hard for CalgaryNEXT may lead to neither happening. Keep the focus on what the majority want, and not on what a few hope to get.

Lol did you seriously just compare Commonwealth Stadium to McMahon? That stadium has been upgraded numerous times.

[Senator Clay Davis]

^^Massive means cost, not "big". I don't think anyone expects the next Stamps stadium to seat 60,000. But $200 million is pretty much unjustifiable for a CFL stadium. Tax payers have to decide if they're willing to have their taxes go up to build a new stadium. I personally am not and I assume the vast majority are not either. Though curiously someone like Ponch who hates the NDP and Liberals is now begging for corporate handouts and his taxes to go up as a result. Sports can be quite the mind #### sometime in terms of how it makes people act.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But it's fans as a whole, not just Toronto fans although Toronto fans are a terrible example (though to be fair they packed BMO Field for the MLS Cup). Live football is right up there with baseball as the worst live sport to go to. It's a made for TV sport, you spend 3 hours at a live sport to see the equivalent of 15 minutes of actual game action. Most people spend more time in their commute to the game then they do watching actual game action occur. The rest is huddles, pre and post snap stuff, and commercials. Nevermind being able to buy a 12 pack at home for the equivalent of 3 beers at McMahon. Even the infallible NFL is seeing swaths of empty seats at its games now, something you wouldn't see a decade ago. A CFL stadium isn't worth it, and going with CalgaryNEXT makes no sense from a city perspective. They can spend $200 million on their own for 24/7/365 public access facility, or they can give the Stamps $200 million and turn that public access facility into more of a 24/6/310 situation. Seems kinda obvious from a city perspective which one is better for the benefit of the entire general public.

Are you sure that these are facts, or your opinions? Football has done quite well in the States, and most cities other than Toronto.

I know for myself and many people I know the biggest reason not to go to Stamps games is the stadium. Parking is brutal, the C-Train access creates a massive line up to go home, and if you have a 2nd beer you had better have a bladder buddy because bathrooms are tough.

Having said that I don't think you build a new stadium unless you can partner up and find other uses for it than football. And I'm fine with that.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Are you sure that these are facts, or your opinions? Football has done quite well in the States, and most cities other than Toronto.

I know for myself and many people I know the biggest reason not to go to Stamps games is the stadium. Parking is brutal, the C-Train access creates a massive line up to go home, and if you have a 2nd beer you had better have a bladder buddy because bathrooms are tough.

Having said that I don't think you build a new stadium unless you can partner up and find other uses for it than football. And I'm fine with that.

Hence the fieldhouse concept. Everyone wins as the city gets a nicer fieldhouse than it would be on it's own and the city can host football and sports like soccer in cold months of the year with an indoor facility.

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But Edmonton's stadium isn't any younger than McMahon and I don't hear them begging for a new stadium.

McMahon was built in 1960. Commonwealth opened in 1978. Almost 20 years newer and obviously much better upkeep and modernization.

[Ozy_Flame]

Stamps, Dinos, Calgary premier amateur sport divisions, annual track/field events, Foothills FC, and a future MLS franchise (15 years out) should share the same stadium, with schedules interspersed throughout the year. This is akin to what the Saddledome is used for right now with the Flames, Roughnecks, and Hitmen.

The more "tenants" that can be used for a collective sporting space, the better.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The fieldhouse is supposed to be an amateur sports facility, not the Stamps home/Taylor Swift concert house. Again, they can spend $200 million for a 100% full public access facility, or they can spend $200 million for a limited public access facility. And oh yeah, nevermind the guaranteed price increases that come with any new facility, which cuts out the average fan. It's a political loser, besides also being a financially poor decision.

And really it's a moot argument now it seems, CalgaryNEXT is all but dead so let's start focusing on the plan B arena and get some renderings and concepts out of that. Wasting time on the same backs and forths we've been going about for months now isn't going anywhere, especially when again CalgaryNEXT appears all but dead. I know that the staunch CalgaryNEXT supporters are going through the phases right now so I get the anger and denial, but it looks like it's over. Bring on the new, $0 public contribution arena. It's what the vast majority wants anyway.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And really it's a moot argument now it seems, CalgaryNEXT is all but dead so let's start focusing on the plan B arena and get some renderings and concepts out of that. Wasting time on the same backs and forths we've been going about for months now isn't going anywhere, especially when again CalgaryNEXT appears all but dead. I know that the staunch CalgaryNEXT supporters are going through the phases right now so I get the anger and denial, but it looks like it's over. Bring on the new, $0 public contribution arena. It's what the vast majority wants anyway.

Wow more of what you think is what it is. Scary.

I "believe" that it's not dead, not with the city needing building concepts for an Olympic bid. I think it's politics and posturing, and sure you can call that denial, just as easy as I can suggest you're getting duped by hanging on to Nenshi's every word.