Toronto Blue Jays - Offseason Thread

[Cappy]

I would agree that Dyson has an advantage in the field. If they play LF, then the difference isn't earth shattering

They are the same hitter. Dyson had a career year last year, Revere had a terrible year. Dyson is 31, Revere is 28. Both are hollow batters (average with no power whatsoever).

There really isn't much to pine on here outside of one having a career year and the other having his worst year of his career.

But Dyson is under team control and you need to give up assets (what, i don't know). Revere is a FA.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

He might not walk alot, but he is a contact hitter and he rarely swings and misses. A player that hits around .300, always puts the ball in play and is a constant threat on the basepaths is definitely an asset. Probably more valuable to this team than another .240 hitter that either strikes out or hits a solo shot

A .240 hitter with a .330 OBP with power vs a .300 hitter with a .330 OBP without...

Yeah, ill take the power guy any day of the week.

[Cappy]

Here is some interesting stats about the solo HR phenomenon we have argued about.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...=1&submitter=1

The above is total HR per team this season. TOR is 4 with 221

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...=1&submitter=1

The above is Total solo HR by each team in the league last year. TOR is 9th

Obviously that doesnt look into the percentage of solo HRs per team (i don't have time to do that), but it gives us an idea of where the jays were last season in hitting solo dingers compared to HRs with men on.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cappy

A .240 hitter with a .330 OBP with power vs a .300 hitter with a .330 OBP without...

Yeah, ill take the power guy any day of the week.

Except alot if these free swingers don't walk alot either. Someone like Bautista is the exception. I'd also like to point out that while with the Jays Revere actually did a much better job of getting on base than he has elsewhere. He is also more likely to get infield singles due to how slow our infield is.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I'd also like to point out that while with the Jays Revere actually did a much better job of getting on base than he has elsewhere. He is also more likely to get infield singles due to how slow our infield is.

I don't buy that...

A: Small Sample Size
B: I can't find any evidence that the infield at Rogers plays notably slower then elsewhere
C: Even if it does it's likely not a net advantage (in the sense that for every infield hit that someone is able to leg out there is likely a ball that finds an infielder that would have found a gap on a faster field)
D: His OBP at Rogers Centre was actually lower then his season numbers

[868904]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I don't buy that...

A: Small Sample Size
B: I can't find any evidence that the infield at Rogers plays notably slower then elsewhere
C: Even if it does it's likely not a net advantage (in the sense that for every infield hit that someone is able to leg out there is likely a ball that finds an infielder that would have found a gap on a faster field)
D: His OBP at Rogers Centre was actually lower then his season numbers

But he's still a guy who should hit close to .300 and get on base 33% of the time. Last year was the one season where he wasn't close to those numbers.

Depending on money, I think he'd be the best fit you can get right now. Checks off a lot of boxes for the Jays.

- can hit lead off (not great, but decent at it);
- bats left;
- plays the outfield (gets to balls, but a noodle arm);
- has speed and can cause some ruckus on the base paths.

I think that last part was sorely missing last year. It's not that you really want them stealing bases while the big boppers are at the plate, it's more that you want them to distract the pitcher and catcher into making a mistake. Last year, there was zero base stealing threat when the 2 to 6 guys were at the plate. The pitcher and catcher just had to focus solely on making a good pitch to the batter. You need every little advantage you can get out there. I feel the Jays just don't do enough of the little things. Speed also keeps you out of double plays and helps you get into scoring position on singles. It doesn't do you much good to get on base, if you can't make it home because you are slow (see Bautista).

I think the plan now is to sign Revere and Moss, which is going to be very very disappointing to fans who are looking for the big splash. I do think both those guys will fill needs and help out. The question is whether they will use the remaining money on some good relievers or hold it for some big acquisitions at the trade deadline IF they are in contention.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Except alot if these free swingers don't walk alot either. Someone like Bautista is the exception. I'd also like to point out that while with the Jays Revere actually did a much better job of getting on base than he has elsewhere. He is also more likely to get infield singles due to how slow our infield is.

That's where OBP comes in.

They are both getting on base the same amount .330. One is better at hitting for singles, the other, while getting less base hits is walking more.

Whats the difference if they both end up on first?

Perhaps, the contact guy can move a guy up or at least put the ball in play, but that isn't always better than a SO.

Revere was with TOR for less than 3 months. Small sample size.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cappy

That's where OBP comes in.

They are both getting on base the same amount .330. One is better at hitting for singles, the other, while getting less base hits is walking more.

Whats the difference if they both end up on first?

Perhaps, the contact guy can move a guy up or at least put the ball in play, but that isn't always better than a SO.

Revere was with TOR for less than 3 months. Small sample size.

A major difference would be who is on base, one is a guy that averages 40+ stolen bases a year over his career, the other is a prime candidate to run into a double play. I get home runs are more sexy, but in no way is Revere on first and say Jay Bruce each on first the same thing.

And I know it's a small sample size, I'm not ######ed. But how is it any different than judging Revere based on a season where he had injury issues? One is much closer to the norm than the other.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

A major difference would be who is on base, one is a guy that averages 40+ stolen bases a year over his career, the other is a prime candidate to run into a double play. I get home runs are more sexy, but in no way is Revere on first and say Jay Bruce each on first the same thing.

And I know it's a small sample size, I'm not ######ed. But how is it any different than judging Revere based on a season where he had injury issues? One is much closer to the norm than the other.

No one has mentioned Jay Bruce at all..

The argument is Ben Revere is a hollow average. He hits 300/330/380.

Slugging is sexy, but it is also far more valuable than speed, everything else considered.

Average guy with zero ability to hit any extra bases. To me, that is not a valuable person. His value is speed, and if he cannot hit for average, for whatever reason, then he is useless (think Hamilton in Cincy)

But my argument isn't that I don't want him on this team whatsoever... it's that I would have to move passed a few players to get to him, so he really isn't my first choice to come to the jays as an everyday outfielder.

If he hits 300/350 would i be mad? no, not really. But I'm not looking at him being the missing piece on this team, last year or this year.

I don't buy the fear on the base paths argument, especially if he is hitting in front of JD/JB/EE/KM or whoever.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Cappy

No one has mentioned Jay Bruce at all..

The argument is Ben Revere is a hollow average. He hits 300/330/380.

Slugging is sexy, but it is also far more valuable than speed, everything else considered.

Average guy with zero ability to hit any extra bases. To me, that is not a valuable person. His value is speed, and if he cannot hit for average, for whatever reason, then he is useless (think Hamilton in Cincy)

But my argument isn't that I don't want him on this team whatsoever... it's that I would have to move passed a few players to get to him, so he really isn't my first choice to come to the jays as an everyday outfielder.

If he hits 300/350 would i be mad? no, not really. But I'm not looking at him being the missing piece on this team, last year or this year.

I don't buy the fear on the base paths argument, especially if he is hitting in front of JD/JB/EE/KM or whoever.

He had 9 SB attempts as a Jay. I agree the threat of a steal just isn't that real when you have the heart of the order coming up that is built around power.

His speed could maybe turn a double into an RBI and get out of the odd double play but those plays arn't all that common. Revere is pretty far down the list of options for me that I think can actually help this team.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cappy

No one has mentioned Jay Bruce at all..

The argument is Ben Revere is a hollow average. He hits 300/330/380.

Slugging is sexy, but it is also far more valuable than speed, everything else considered.

Average guy with zero ability to hit any extra bases. To me, that is not a valuable person. His value is speed, and if he cannot hit for average, for whatever reason, then he is useless (think Hamilton in Cincy)

But my argument isn't that I don't want him on this team whatsoever... it's that I would have to move passed a few players to get to him, so he really isn't my first choice to come to the jays as an everyday outfielder.

If he hits 300/350 would i be mad? no, not really. But I'm not looking at him being the missing piece on this team, last year or this year.

I don't buy the fear on the base paths argument, especially if he is hitting in front of JD/JB/EE/KM or whoever.

It was pretty clear I was using Bruce as an example since he's been tied to the Jays, not exactly rocket science.

I also said nothing about fear on the bases, just saying speed on the bases is more of an asset than not having speed on the bases, arguing your point that as long as they are on first it doesn't matter which player it is.

[REDVAN]

If we just want speed, what's wrong with Pompey... and why can't Pillar learn to run the bases lol

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Cappy

But my argument isn't that I don't want him on this team whatsoever... it's that I would have to move passed a few players to get to him, so he really isn't my first choice to come to the jays as an everyday outfielder.

Same. The way I see it the Jays need 1.65 outfielders. That is to say that we need 1 guy to be an everyday player and one LHB to platoon with Upton. I'd like a better bat then Revere to be the everyday guy, he doesn't have a noticeable platoon split to be paired with Upton, and isn't an above average defender. He's more the option that the team should go to if all other attempts to land an everyday outfielder don't bare fruit.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

If we just want speed, what's wrong with Pompey... and why can't Pillar learn to run the bases lol

In both cases, need to actually get on base first. Pillar is a fine baserunner IMO but he isn't very good at getting on base.

Hard to know where the organization stands on Pompey. I think he got pretty overrated because of the whole Canadian drafted by the Canadian team story. Not sure he can hit well enough to be a full time MLB outfielder and he doesn't carry the same type of glove Pillar does that can compesante for the lack of a bat.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by cross16

Hard to know where the organization stands on Pompey. I think he got pretty overrated because of the whole Canadian drafted by the Canadian team story. Not sure he can hit well enough to be a full time MLB outfielder and he doesn't carry the same type of glove Pillar does that can compesante for the lack of a bat.

I feel the same.

I think he'd be a fine 4th outfielder who provides late game defensive replacement and pinch-running but he'd have to take a big leap forward to be an everyday guy.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by cross16

In both cases, need to actually get on base first. Pillar is a fine baserunner IMO but he isn't very good at getting on base.

Hard to know where the organization stands on Pompey. I think he got pretty overrated because of the whole Canadian drafted by the Canadian team story. Not sure he can hit well enough to be a full time MLB outfielder and he doesn't carry the same type of glove Pillar does that can compesante for the lack of a bat.

I think Pompey was rushed to the bigs and that hurt his development, they did the same thing with Travis Snider.

The Jays haven't had a great track record of drafting and developing high end position players of late.

I think Harold Ramirez is going to end up passing Pompey on the depth chart by the end of the year.

[ClubFlames]

Really good article about the slow off-season for the Jays so far.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/...er-it-all-away

This off-season, they have spent $55 million on Kendrys Morales and Steve Pearce, which is mostly significant because it isn’t $200 million on Bautista and Encarnacion, otherwise known as the thing Blue Jays fans allowed themselves to dream about in quiet moments. There is certainly a case against signing either slugger to giant multi-year deals, but it remains to be seen what kind of a roster the Blue Jays would have without them. Morales and Pearce are the kind of veterans who could be valuable pieces to a contending team, but neither signals a wholesale commitment to remaining in contention.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ClubFlames

Really good article about the slow off-season for the Jays so far.

It's been a slow offseason around the league IMO. Most of the bigger name free agents either resigned with their teams or are still on the market. It's been a total snorefest so far except for the White Sox trades.

[Cappy]

Man, even the O's pulled their offer to Trumbo.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by ClubFlames

Really good article about the slow off-season for the Jays so far.

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/...er-it-all-away

Pretty crapy article actually if you ask me. Maybe a good aritcle to write if we are sitting here in April and the Jays haven't spent any money but to write that at the end of December with a bunch of FA out there and a very slow developing market?

I think the Jays have played the market the right way. It wasn't a very good FA market so let teams overpay for the "top" of it and see how the rest comes to you. The people who have been asking the Jays to go all in and spend money are probably the same ones who in 2 seasons from now would screaming for a rebuild that can't happen because of all the bad money on the books.