Alberta Politics Thread

[Slava]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Again, in before the usual NDP response:

Good. Those dirty disgusting companies, they DESERVE to be forced to shut down and die if they:

a) Can't pay the additional carbon tax we're forcing on them.
b) Can't pay the additional business tax we're forcing on them.
c) Can't pay the additional increase in wages we're forcing on them.

I like that you did this in green text, and it's because they're greenhouses, right?

Also, this is exactly the kind of business the NDP is targeting I guess. We don't need fresh produce, just like we can just turn off the furnace in the winter. It's about priorities and choices.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Dion

Alberta businesses fret as province-wide carbon tax nears
http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...rbon-tax-nears

The easiest solution for all of those businesses is to just move out of Alberta, that's probably what lots of companies will do. Greenhouses can move to Sask and ship their products back. Transportation companies can move their distribution hubs out of province and buy as much fuel out of province as possible. When the feds bring in a country wide carbon tax companies like this can just move to Montana. Won't do a damn thing to lower carbon emmisions and will just cost jobs and damage our tax base.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The easiest solution for all of those businesses is to just move out of Alberta, that's probably what lots of companies will do. Greenhouses can move to Sask and ship their products back. Transportation companies can move their distribution hubs out of province and buy as much fuel out of province as possible. When the feds bring in a country wide carbon tax companies like this can just move to Montana. Won't do a damn thing to lower carbon emmisions and will just cost jobs and damage our tax base.

You can't seriously think that import taxes and transportation costs won't be a significantly higher cost than the carbon tax?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You can't seriously think that import taxes and transportation costs won't be a significantly higher cost than the carbon tax?

Well it sure as #### isn't going to help them be competitive selling their product in other markets, now is it?

Speaking of which, all these marijuana companies considering setting up in Alberta are going to think twice about it.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You can't seriously think that import taxes and transportation costs won't be a significantly higher cost than the carbon tax?

Transportation companies run all over the country, if you start raising their costs across the board they can easily move their warehouses a few hours away across the provincial border. It's also not that hard to have their drivers buy fuel before entering Alberta if the prices are lower, in fact it is common practice to top up where prices are best. Those trucks hold thousands of liters and can go quite a way with the tanks full.

I wasn't aware that Alberta charged import taxes on food coming from BC and Sask, perhaps you can enlighten me?

[CaptainCrunch]

IIRC companies from outside of the province importing goods into the province are carbon tax exempt, another brilliant piece of this legislature that makes Alberta companies less competitive then their neighbours.

And Iggy read the article even if these companies move and their transport costs go up they're going to pass the costs onto the consumers.

So literally the prediction that this stupid badly thought of carbon tax is going to increase everything not just gas for your car and heating and electricity for your house is moving to reality.

Everyone's rent is going to go up, a night out is going to go up.

For a party that's supposed to be so concerned about the poor and the vulnerable they're sure going out of their way to frack them over.

[OMG!WTF!]

Aren't we all paying a federal carbon tax at some point? Or is that on top of these willy nilly provincial carbon taxes?

I'm not convinced rent will go up. The market may prevail there. Your expenses as a landlord have always been totally inconsequential when pricing your rental.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Aren't we all paying a federal carbon tax at some point? Or is that on top of these willy nilly provincial carbon taxes?

Sask isn't going to implement their own carbon tax and they'll tie the federal one in court for years so it won't be implemented there anytime soon.

From what I understand Wall is going to challenge the carbon tax as unconstitutional, which I think means that he can also enact the not withstanding clause which argues that carbon governance is a provincial and not federal jurisdiction.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sask isn't going to implement their own carbon tax and they'll tie the federal one in court for years so it won't be implemented there anytime soon.

From what I understand Wall is going to challenge the carbon tax as unconstitutional, which I think means that he can also enact the not withstanding clause which argues that carbon governance is a provincial and not federal jurisdiction.

So we pay $50 a ton to Justin and then another $20-$30 to Rachel? Geez. We're f'ed.

[CaptainCrunch]

no its one or the other with the expectation that the provincial one will at least match the federal one.

I looked up the constitutional challenges of carbon taxes in Australia where their supreme court ruled that carbon was the property of the state, not the federal government.

The challenge for the Federal government is that for it to pass the constitutional challenge it can't be a tax but a revenue neutral levy from what I understand. So Wall is either going to site Australia which has a similar constitution to Canada or challenge that the government is imposing a tax under the guise of a levy which will fail the challenge.

But I'm no lawyer

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Transportation companies run all over the country, if you start raising their costs across the board they can easily move their warehouses a few hours away across the provincial border. It's also not that hard to have their drivers buy fuel before entering Alberta if the prices are lower, in fact it is common practice to top up where prices are best. Those trucks hold thousands of liters and can go quite a way with the tanks full.

Have you ever worked in warehousing or supply chain management? Easily move their operations? These businesses live and die on efficiency and cost per case/load, moving an entire operation has so many moving parts that even a very well run company can fail at it. They are gonna fuel up where it's cheaper? You realize we currently have the cheapest gas in the country right? How much do you really think fuel is really going to go up in price?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...on154a-eng.htm

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/9705290

Do the math and explain to me how it makes sense to add 100's of kilometres in travel fuel consumption expenses to save 2-3 cents per litre? If that.

I wasn't aware that Alberta charged import taxes on food coming from BC and Sask, perhaps you can enlighten me?

I was referring to your comment about businesses moving to Montana. You are aware that Montana is in another country right?

[CaptainCrunch]

With an expectation of at least a 4.5 cent increase per liter of gas, according to your chart, gas is Regina and Saskatoon will be cheaper, but chances are these organizations will nove their hub operations to places like Lloyd or Kindersly and get cheaper tax concessions from the Sask government

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And Iggy read the article even if these companies move and their transport costs go up they're going to pass the costs onto the consumers.

Wouldn't passing the cost onto the consumer be counter productive? I mean if no one can afford to pay for their goods and services wouldn't they be just pricing themselves out of any business here? Is it not plausible(sensible?) that companies would rather take a small hit(like their consumers are) to continue to make money rather than try to continue keeping their profits at the same level while decreasing their customer base?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Wouldn't passing the cost onto the consumer be counter productive? I mean if no one can afford to pay for their goods and services wouldn't they be just pricing themselves out of any business here? Is it not plausible(sensible?) that companies would rather take a small hit(like their consumers are) to continue to make money rather than try to continue keeping their profits at the same level while decreasing their customer base?

There is going to be a global passing on of costs to the consumer its not going to be one company or two.

All restaurants are going to do it, all of the grocery chains logistical companies every single company is going to pass that whatever it is 4 to 6 or more percent onto the consumer.

Plus how many hits are companies supposed to take. The 20% tax increase? The increase in minimum wage? The increases in property tax? The carbon tax? Its not up to the companies to cover for government stupidity.

You seem to have a utopian view that these companies are going to grin and and take kicks to the balls. They're not, especially the companies that provide essential goods that people have to buy like food and clothing and sundries. On top of that telling a organization to lose profits for the good of what? mankind is fine, except that this will reduce the amount of dollars that these companies can re-invest which means stagnation. On top of that the national based companies certainly won't take the reduction of profits in Alberta and scream "Hip Hip Hooray boys lets expand and invest in Alberta" instead they'll probably look at Wall's government in Saskatchewan and hedge their bets there.


Retail stores in malls that work on fairly thin margins aren't going to be in a position to eat the loss in profit. Nor are small businesses.

[LanceUppercut]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Wouldn't passing the cost onto the consumer be counter productive? I mean if no one can afford to pay for their goods and services wouldn't they be just pricing themselves out of any business here? Is it not plausible(sensible?) that companies would rather take a small hit(like their consumers are) to continue to make money rather than try to continue keeping their profits at the same level while decreasing their customer base?

I'm going to assume you didn't see the federal report where the costs of a carbon tax would "cascade through the economy". No, they won't eat the cost. Everyone will pass it along.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

With an expectation of at least a 4.5 cent increase per liter of gas, according to your chart, gas is Regina and Saskatoon will be cheaper, but chances are these organizations will nove their hub operations to places like Lloyd or Kindersly and get cheaper tax concessions from the Sask government

If you cherry pick the data, yes it would look as though it will be more expensive here. However if you take the average price of Edmonton and Calgary, and compare it to the average of Saskatoon and Regina over the last 4 years, you will see it's still likely to be cheaper here in the long run. When businesses plan things like moving an operation to a different province, which method of calculation do you think they will base their decisions on?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If you cherry pick the data, yes it would look as though it will be more expensive here. However if you take the average price of Edmonton and Calgary, and compare it to the average of Saskatoon and Regina over the last 4 years, you will see it's still likely to be cheaper here in the long run. When businesses plan things like moving an operation to a different province, which method of calculation do you think they will base their decisions on?

Its not just going to be the carbon tax and its cascade effect that's going to chase them out of the province.

But two big factors are if they move out of province they become carbon exempt in terms of importing goods into Alberta which means that their heating and power and property taxes and rents are probably going to be a lot cheaper if they move to Saskatchewan. In distribution its backbone is around unskilled workers which are going to be cheaper in another province.

They won't completely shut down distribution in Alberta obviously, but they'll shrink their footprints here to essentially sorting centers while their main hubs leave which will cost a lot of jobs.

[Locke]

Whats that? Everything is going to get more expensive for everyone?

No way! Say it aint so!

Well, have we considered raising the minimum wage?

We have? I see...

Hmm...how about just taxing people more?

They can pay more for everything and more taxes! They didnt need all that money anyways! That was a luxury.

Yes....this is a brilliant plan! A well thought out strategy! I'm glad our Government is on top of this.

[CaptainCrunch]

One day Locke, I must buy you a drink, you give me a good laugh a day.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Have you ever worked in warehousing or supply chain management? Easily move their operations?

Haha, yes. I'm guessing I've forgotten more about the industry than you know.