What are your thoughts on Glen Gulutzan's system?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Right now, no, they are not capable of more offensive output unless they are sacrificing defensive responsibility, which doesn't win you games as evidenced by the previous tenure under hartley.


This is your problem. Rebuilds from scratch don't happen in 3 years. You were likely warned several times in threads over the years about how long this rebuild would take, it's on you if you can't identify that no team in the league has ever turned it around in 3 years. Calgary just had 3 of their 4 worst all-time finishes, the team is garbage right now and the record illustrates that.

If you didn't see this coming maybe you should post less and read more.

Not gonna keep defending the Hartley years as there were plenty of problems, but he did make the playoffs and win a round. Amazing that everyone seems to gloss over tangible results for some mystical future system that will get sustainable results.

One thing Hartley did do well was motivate the team -- I can't stand when coaches say things like "X team can't play this way because they aren't good enough". (not that Gulutzan has said that, but it seems to be your opinion). Obvious way to kill the confidence of the room. To win in this league young teams need a certain degree of swagger and belief. That seems to be gone.

And your condescending tone aside, no one ever said the rebuild should be complete. I'm doing the same as you, using my eyes and reason to analyze what's going on so far this season. And right now the offense is not going well, that's simply a fact.

Where we differ is that you think this team has no skill and should keep gunning for top 10 picks, where I think they have the skill to be far better offensively and should be more competitive more quickly. I don't expect the rebuild to be complete this year but I do expect to see some definite signs of progression. Offensively there's been a massive regression.

[Inglewood Jack]

using Hartley's one trip to the playoffs as proof that he was a successful coach is like using Colborne's opening night hat trick this year to prove that he helps the Avalanche win games. nobody has forgotten that magical funtimes 2014-15 season, but have people forgotten what most of the games actually looked like? falling behind early and praying for a miracle comeback which miraculously happened a bunch of times. and then the year after was the same, except without the comebacks, i.e. what a normal Hartley year should look like.

Bob's 4 years here tell us exactly what he is. GG's 25 games don't, especially as a younger coach that's still feeling around and experimenting, which is already more than what Bob was willing to do. give GG one year and then make the all-encompassing proclamations, at least by then there'll be a bit more basis for it.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Kind of a similar situation to when Brent took over the team from Keenan. It was a painful adjustment for a team full of players used to freelancing having to adapt to a more defensively responsible game.

25 games in the Flames are 2nd worst in goals against and have the worst goal differential. What else needs to be said.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Two goals or less in 14 of our last 17 games played. We're only winning more because Johnson is standing on his head.

True, but hockey is a team game. Right now, special teams are improving, and goaltending is solid. Those are good signs.

The Flames' two biggest offensive threats have been far, far below their standards. If the Flames maintain this level of play, and Monahan gets back to being Monahan the Flames will be alright. If both Monahan and Johnny (when he gets back) click like days of yore, they will be better than alright.

You pay these guys top dollar to do the heavy lifting. Defense is vastly improved IMO, now it's up to the top forwards to start scoring.

The first 15 games of the season were a tire fire from top to bottom.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by zamler

25 games in the Flames are 2nd worst in goals against and have the worst goal differential. What else needs to be said.

The GAA has come down since October so there is some progress. I'm not saying Gulutzan is the answer as I'm sure there are coaches out there that could have taken this team and done a better job transitioning but it is what it is. This is the coach the GM picked and we are stuck with him for the rest of the season at least so we may as well look for the positives and hope that things turn around. After the last two seasons we should all realize this team isn't nearly as good as we thought it was so part of the issue is that this team simply doesn't have the horses to compete with better teams in the league.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by zamler

25 games in the Flames are 2nd worst in goals against and have the worst goal differential. What else needs to be said.

The last 10 games have not been a disaster like the first 15 were. At least there is progress being made.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Almost straight from the Brent Sutter book of quotes ("This team can't score off the rush"). What a bunch of nonsense. This team has plenty of offensive skill and speed. How much offensive talent do they need to collect to be considered a skilled team? 2 more top 10 picks?

Ken Hitchcock used to always talk about the skill and speed the Flames had whenever they played the Blues.

"They've got their A-game going again," head coach Ken Hitchcock told StLouisBlues.com. "You knew based on their skill and speed that it would come around, especially on the back end. They've got a lot of confidence in their game, they've got a lot of transition, a lot of ability to score off the rush. I think they're one of the best teams scoring off the rush in the league."

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/scou...blues/c-793533

“Speed and skill — they played the young guys ahead of the curve and saw speed and skill in them and bit the bullet, and obviously, it’s paying huge dividends right now. They score with anybody in the league now and have one of the quickest transitions in the league.

“You’ve got to be impressed as there was a plan set for them by management as ‘this is the way we’re going to play,’ and they played that way from start to the end. This is just a coordinated effort from management, coaches and players, and we have to find a way to beat it.”

“When you see a team play a certain style, that’s a little different — very much an attacking style that’s creating pressure and scoring like this — you look at what you can learn from them.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/03/17...calgary-flames

[puckedoff]

I think the thing with GG's system is that all players need to be on the same page in order for it to work. The short passes to the middle and back to wing on the breakout are great when executed, but can lead to a lot of pucks held in just shy of the blue line at times.

On paper I see how the system can be successful, but it requires players to make the right decision quickly (due to the speed of NHL) and for the team to be in-sync. Hopefully the longer they play the system the easier the decisions get, because when things are clicking this team could be dominant.

I think that's why we have seen two polar opposite teams this year, as when the execution is there the team plays great but if the execution slips even a little it looks like dog ess.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

Ken Hitchcock used to always talk about the skill and speed the Flames had whenever they played the Blues.



https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/scou...blues/c-793533







http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/03/17...calgary-flames

Two year old article.

This is like when puckluck tried to tell me the Flames have scored a ton of goals years ago so they won't have a problem doing it this year.

Base level analysis. Kiddie pool levels of shallow.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Two year old article.

This is like when puckluck tried to tell me the Flames have scored a ton of goals years ago so they won't have a problem doing it this year.

Base level analysis. Kiddie pool levels of shallow.

Nice reading comprehension skills Walken, the first article is from Dec. 19, 2015 which is last year.

And yeah the other article is from 2 years ago, but it just re-enforces the fact that Hitchcock thinks the Flames have a lot of speed and skill.

But I guess you know a lot better then one of the best coaches in the NHL which teams have skill and talent, right?

[shadowlord]

I'm still not convinced that GG's system works with this team or in the NHL.

Too many of our top level players (Brodie, Johnny, Monahan, Gio) are struggling, and I just don't think it's a coincidence. I think the system works for plugs but stifles creativity in talented players.

When the Flames win, credit goes to the system. But when the Flames lose, everyone says they played a bad game. 23 games in, everyone should know the system by now (and the fact that we've done playing the system means they do know it). This means that the many recent losses are a result of the system failing the players.

During losses, the system is probably putting players in bad positions resulting in bad breaks or being forced to take penalties. We're probably seeing the same thing in wins too, but the opposition is unable to exploit it, or we are able to outscore the opponent.

[Enoch Root]

I'm not convinced either (though I am still open-minded).

Defensively, things are definitely improving. And as their confidence grows, I assume the giveaways in their own end will continue to dwindle.

However, I am not yet convinced that this system suits the team offensively. I am willing to wait a while longer until everyone is playing better, but if the primary offensive strategy really is dump and chase, any fool can see that D&C does not align with the players that the Flames employ.

And no system can succeed if it doesn't match the personnel.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The last 10 games have not been a disaster like the first 15 were. At least there is progress being made.

Yeah, I have trouble including the disastrous first few games especially. IMO a non-call in game one cost the Flames not only the game but a few more after that. Calgary's confidence took a hit (after they were coming back in that game) and Edmonton's got a boost which carried over into game 2. It took a while to get past that initial stage.

Barry Trotz's first 20 game in Washington were underwhelming. Barely .500 with a much better lineup. Then they clicked into what he was trying to do. I think GG is best evaluated on whether the team is trending better or worse.

[CSharp]

I can't watch a full Flames game right now with this system. I'd rather watch something more exciting. I just switch back to see the score and get back into another show just before a commercial ends. Didn't even know the Flames played Philly the other night when the Grey Cup football game was on. At least the Stamps disappointing lost in OT is more dramatic.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

Nice reading comprehension skills Walken, the first article is from Dec. 19, 2015 which is last year.

And yeah the other article is from 2 years ago, but it just re-enforces the fact that Hitchcock thinks the Flames have a lot of speed and skill.

But I guess you know a lot better then one of the best coaches in the NHL which teams have skill and talent, right?

Spoiler!

You know what tells me which teams have talent and which don't? The Standings.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You know what tells me which teams have talent and which don't? The Standings.

In your own words: Base level analysis. Kiddie pool levels of shallow.

Every team in the NHL has talent and there is far more parity than ever before. The current standings are just a snapshot of how teams are doing and where they are at right now. There a lot of factors that go into that snapshot, not just 'talent'.

But you already know that, and likely just want to continue being condescending with every response to other posters.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I wish Flash Walken would go away

So many horrible posters here I don't know why we bother sometimes.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

The Hartley system was a great fit for perpetual 22nd place finishes.

Ignoring the fact that Hartley didn't perpetually get 22nd place finishes in his time - and ignoring the fact that the Flames were a rebuilding team during his tenure here - that was not the point I was making. Was not even stating that Hartley's system was better than Gulutzan's system.

The poster I quoted stated that there were lots of blowout games during Hartley's tenure. That simply was false.

Great job at a drive-by though. First class. Your drive-by contains absolutely nothing with regards to the conversation, or what my point was.

Also, you fail. If you think Hartley's system leads to perpetual 22nd place finishes, then I don't know what to tell you. Flames did make the playoffs one year. That nullifies your argument. Also, this was a rebuilding squad, so quite unfair to assume that the team would be continually finishing in the bottom of the standings year after year.

Further to that...

The Stars - led by the scrub of a coach Lindy Ruff - finished 2nd in the league last year. Before you decide to move the goalposts and say it was just 'Hartley coaching', you wrote "The Hartley system was a great fit for perpetual 22nd place finishes." Ruff uses the exact same system for the Stars, who finished 2nd overall last year. So no, 'the Hartley system' is not relegated to perpetual 22nd place finishes.

It is funny - I am giving Gulutzan an open mind, and I have been on record that I prefer a system that has a more active defence pressuring the other team in the defensive zone. I find it funny how many posters are throwing garbage at Hartley and making it seem like things were so much worse than they were.

No, the Flames were not 'blown-out often'.
No, Hartley's system (the same system that a few teams use, actually) does not guarantee 22nd (or worse) place finishes.

Just because the team decided to move on doesn't make him a terrible coach. Just because he won the Jack Adams doesn't mean the team made a mistake by moving on from him. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle. There is no need to just spew nonsense - especially when it comes in the form of 'matter of fact' drive-bys that don't even relate to a post that is quoted.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

True, but hockey is a team game. Right now, special teams are improving, and goaltending is solid. Those are good signs.

Special teams are improving, but the improvement has been entirely nullified by the 5 on 5 play getting worse. We haven't stopped spinning our wheels, we've merely changed which wheels are spinning.

[automaton 3]

Flames are taking way more penalties so far this year as well.

2015 9:11/game (12th) and 297 penalties (5th)

2016 11:26/game (25th) and 125 penalties (30th, but Flames do have the most GP).

PK has looked a bit better lately, but is still sitting at 29th (76.8%). Home PK is 66.7%

Not going to win very many games with that formula, let alone PP and 5v5.