Singular deterrents don't work. What would work is if the entire team, to a man, was willing to assault another player should they touch Johnny Gaudreau. Take the instigator. I will happily kill that penalty, or even give up a goal, if it means our franchise player is left alone.
The front has to be unified or it won't work. If Johnny gets touched, whoever did it has to get got in some way. Whether it's a fight, a slash to the back of the leg, a cross check, whatever. Someone has to exact a physical price from the opposition within a shift. Either on the offending player or on the other team's star.
A McGrattan is a waste, I agree. An entire team ready to throw down at a moment's notice? Less of a waste.
Disagree and here's why; the team isn't tough enough to stand up to most other teams. We have a skilled speed based squad. If we were the Kings sure the plan would work but our players can't fight back like that. Fire with fire when the team is not built for it won't work. We need a nuclear deterrent.
The negative effect of these players in the lineup would easily be negated by Johhny playing his game. What's he on pace for now? 50 points? He could be at 100 if the opposition was too afraid to slash him. It's the only solution because the team isn't tough enough.
Put Smith in the fourth line and Kanzig with Engelland. Play them both 3-7 a night, unless the opposition is targeting Johhny. In which case Smith on the first line and let him go free. It would only take four or five times to send the message, we don't even need them in the lineup all the time, just a few games until the opposition learns.
I get that you don't take anything seriously, as you've admitted to just making stupid comments while you're bored at work, but a lot of the stuff you post really brings down the level of discussion.
You don't have to be so indignant and insulting to everyone just because we aren't interested in entertaining your self-declared stupidity all the time.
Try reading the earlier posts in the thread where I was actually saying we need to chill out and wait to next year before we can decide if the glass is half full or half empty and then everyone say that I'm being some sort of unbelievable pessimist and see if you feel like there is a segment of the users here that just want this place to be an echo chamber for their own opinions.
What a ridiculous concept. This is a business. They make millions of dollars off these fans.
Here we are still going to games and giving them more money. We can complain when that money is not resulting in an entertaining experience. This is the 4th season since Iginla was traded. Rewind to that day and ask the fans how pleased they would be if they were 28th in Points % in November 4 seasons from then with the entire core locked up long term.
Stop questioning fans resolve. We're all here, talking about them and devoting our time to this team while the owners line their pockets with our money. Just because you choose to bury your head in sand and pretend like this is completely normal doesn't mean that people who don't follow suit are any worse fans than you.
Fans resolve is fine, preference about better and more entertaining hockey is fine. Ridiculous is fans complaining about the management of this team since the Iginla trade, and the complaints bout Sean Monahan's and others progress to date.
Completely fair to call those fans out for having 0 context around their complaints and for being ignorant to just exactly how long this road was going to be when we burnt this team to the ground 4 years ago. If you are feeling a lack of patience that's fair, focus your anger on the management team that delayed our progress back to being a contender by consistently ignoring our true situation, continuing to try and build winners around Iginla, Kipper, Reg and Bow when it clearly wasn't going to work and not trading those players at the right moment, reducing our return for those assets and increasing the timeline on the rebuild and return to being a true contender significantly.
Don't throw your emotions on the management team who was left to clean up the bag of #### they were asked to hold, and certainly don't put your own ridiculous expectations on the shoulders of this teams young key players who are entitled to their time to development just because you feel you've suffered too long as a fan.
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I'd also mention that the Flames are still top 10 in attendance and that CP is as busy as always just has a growing subset that isn't drinking the kool-aid as heavy as some of the other posters and this seems to annoy the users that just want to sit around a campfire, hold hands, sing kumbaya while talking about how everything is going to be alright and patting each other on the back for being "such great fans of such a great franchise"
There you go, you're so much better because only you (and this "growing subset") can see just how clearly the sky is falling.
There you go, you're so much better because only you (and this "growing subset") can see just how clearly the sky is falling.
Am I coming here calling out users for being a-ok and saying that everything is fine out of nowhere? I'm just defending myself cause it's fun to have these debates about hockey. Please find me a post where I went after someone for thinking everything is fine where I was unprovoked.
Let me explain to you how CP works when the Flames aren't playing well.
1. People get frustrated and start making threads questioning the players and management.
2. Some people say everything is fine and some people say that everything is not fine and express concern.
3. The people who say that everything is fine then go and attack the fans that express concern saying that their opinions are "ridiculous" or "they have no patience" and their compatriots pat them on the back and also get in on going after the fans that are expressing concern.
4. This then drives away fans that might also be unhappy with the direction of the team as they don't want to be attacked and worse yet, it causes some new users and people who aren't aware that CP is far more reserved than most other internet forums to lose their mind when they're attacked, which makes the fans that are unhappy look even worse which exasperates the cycle.
5. The echo chamber continues to chug along.
Meanwhile, the Flames have been perennial losers for most of the last 20 years, but yes the fans that aren't as patient or express concern are such a problem.
I'm optimistic about the management team's competence overall.
A little stretch of bad results doesn't shake my confidence that there is a promising group here that knows what they are doing.
Even if Gulutzan ends up failing and needing to be replaced over a larger sample size, I would still trust Treliving to make the replacement.
As for our current batch of prospects and the future, there are some very strong prospects who project to become very good NHLers. Mangiapiane for example
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JobHopper
The thing is, my posts, thoughts and insights may be my opinions but they're also quite factual.
Its simple. Our players are just not good enough to be stanley cup contenders yet alone playoff contenders. Bottom 5 finish this season. You heard it here first
Its simple. Our players are just not good enough to be stanley cup contenders yet alone playoff contenders. Bottom 5 finish this season. You heard it here first
You are just a broken record...
Why do you keep coming here? Like what triggers in your brain that makes you think you need to post garbage constantly?
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Its simple. Our players are just not good enough to be stanley cup contenders yet alone playoff contenders. Bottom 5 finish this season. You heard it here first
Well, no I didn't.
BTW, usually one would say "not good enough for PO let alone stanley cup", not the other way around.
Flames are 2 points out of the wild card without their best offensive player, with their other top players not playing as well as we all know they can, and with the goaltending tandem not quite worked out priority-wise until maybe just now.
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On paper, you have to admit that from our NHL club all the way down to our AHL affiliates, we are doing great in comparison to the Sutter years.
Performance wise? I commented to friends two years ago that our playoff run was something I expected in year 3, maybe 4. Expectation wise, we're completely confused as fans. These "growing pains" are what we expected. But not in this order.
2015 -16th
2016 - 26th
2017 - 24th at the moment per NHL.com (3 way tie points wise with Detroit and Buffalo; 26th if you're being technical)
I think we expected our league ranking to be in reverse for the rebuild.
IMO, we have great pieces moving forward. So much so that we are losing prospects for nothing (arguably, no one wanted them). If we can afford to shed prospects, I think foundation wise we are doing ok. Henceforth comes a time of fine tuning. Gully/Glue gun's system is starting to take shape. The team is looking better and better as kinks are ironed out of the system. I want to say I'm half full, but there's quite a few others I speak with who tell me I'm silly for having such an opinion.
I think most of fans are at half a glass. The empties probably got drunk on the first half of their beer stein and drunkenly spilled and wasted the other half while shaking their fist in anger and babbling nonsensically. This isn't a core that's old and aging. This is a team led by old and aging guys, who are guiding a core group that haven't even entered their prime yet. Furthermore, said core has players that are probably overall between 2-5 years away from entering their primes. Tkachuk, Bennett, Brodie, Hamilton, Monahan, Gaudreau and all the other prospects and picks we have are excellent pieces to have going forward. This isn't even starting to discuss some of the other excellent pieces we have in our prospect system.
Sometimes I feel like my glass is empty, because other fans tell me, "No, no, no. You don't want to drink that.", empty my cup and never refill it.
This is such a great post,thank you.
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"You know, that's kinda why I came here, to show that I don't suck that much" ~ Devin Cooley, Professional Goaltender
I may be the only guy on this board that hasn't written Kanzig and Smith out of a possible future NHL career. However, neither of them are ready. They are long-term project type of players that - if they pan out - will go a long ways to adding depth and grit to this team. However, at this juncture, neither of them are ready.
Also, I love fighting, and part of me misses the 'great 80's and 90's'. They were emotional, they were fun, they were exciting... but they are gone. Anyone that thinks bringing in goons - or even legitimate prospects simply to 'goon it up' haven't been paying attention to what happens.
Other stars are targeted. Are you seriously telling me that 29 other coaches and GMs are stupid and haven't thought about bringing in goons? In fact, some have retained goons until recently. Have they had any positive effect in the game lately?
Remember when the Oilers used Steve MacIntyre? He was fairly effective at throwing the Flames off their game for about a few seasons. So effective, the Oilers actually decided to bring him back since they missed him and his ability to not only protect the players on the team, but to intimidate the other players on the ice. He was effective.
Now, you all know I am not a Brent Sutter fan, so when I provide praise on something he did, it is definitely worthy of said praise. Brent developed an insanely effective strategy to deal with MacIntyre. It completely neutered him so thoroughly, that the Oilers just gave up completely on ever dressing him for Calgary games once they realized what was happening. Anyone guess? Was it McGrattan beating him up? Nope. Was it just ignoring MacIntyre? Nope. Was it trying to ice a fast line against him and take advantage of having him on the ice? Nope, not even that.
The Flames were told that when MacIntyre was on the ice, they were to take runs at him. Get him to respond. Respond he would, every time, and the refs would just smother him and not let a 'goon' do anything. You see, the NHL has put a mandate on the refs to watch out for goons and stop both the staged fights, but more importantly, ensure that goons don't.. well... 'goon' anyone. As soon as they saw Sarich take two or three legal runs at MacIntyre, they would make sure they stayed close to him. The second he tried to respond, they would smother him and ship him off to the penalty box.
If anyone thinks bringing in a goon is going to deter slashes and such to Gaudreau (or anyone else) they are kidding themselves. I bet it would probably result in MORE slashes to try and get a PP out of it.
Know what is going to stop the slashes?
1) Have refs actually call the damn things
2) Have your special teams at least being average
3) Have the kind of team that can start taking liberties against their best players (slashes, run them through the boards, etc), or start crashing the net 'accidentally' in return. Make the game chippy on both sides, where either side can really end up with injuries - no way other coaches are going to want to risk their top players either.
Flames do need to get a bit bigger yet, but they already have the horses to do it this year. Other teams do it because they know the Flames have no response. They know the Flames try to be the most disciplined team in the league. That is what you get, IMO.
Fix your PK, and you can respond without worrying as much about being called for what you did.
Fix your PP in case the refs actually (gasp!) start calling these slashes.
Flames get this treatment from some teams because they know the Flames won't respond likewise, not because they aren't carrying a goon.
You don't need Tkachuk to 'worry about retribution' or 'policing'. You don't need any single player - other than Engelland, and only in certain situations (like having that idiot Lucic start acting up) - for policing. You do it as a team.
Johnny and whomever else slashes back. Brouwer, Ferland, Bennett, Engelland, Giordano, Tkachuk, Bouma, Hathaway, Chiasson... better yet, EVERYONE.. start playing chippy, start facewashing, start slashing and running guys, crashing the crease a bit, etc. Games will get a bit more out of hand, and you make sure your entire team targets their best players, not just the guys doing the slashing.
Personally, I will be very disappointed if the Flames don't target Suter and Staal with increased physical confrontations. Not gooning. Not some form of illegal retribution. Just play those guys physically, and quite honestly, dirty. Flames need to learn how to play dirty, filthy hockey on that razor's edge at times. Tkachuk hockey. Hathaway hockey. Ferland hockey with his legal but painful hits.
Target the 1st line guys, 1st pairing defencemen and goalies, and at worst you have an even playing field, and you make the other team think twice about doing it next time. You make other teams think twice about using it as a tactic to throw your team off.
Boudreau coached that team to do that. They did it as a unified group, without question. The Flames responded by crying to the refs about it for the majority of the game until Gaudreau's bone broke. That still could have happened in my scenario, but maybe Suter would be missing from the Wild's lineup as well for the next month or two.
Refs never like a game to get out of hand. IMO, that's the best pressure to put on them for calling those 'taps' with more frequency. Many of those 21 slashes I agree were taps, but there was a number of heavy slashes too. They saw them, and let them go. If the game got chippy, and those slashes were clearly causing a reaction (other than whining) the refs call about 5 or 6 examples of those every time.
This is a team that is a couple pieces short. The sky is not falling. This is a damn good mix of players. What is missing is not a generational talent like some #### show up the road was lucky enough to stumble into. What this team is missing is scoring RW and a short down defenseman. After that, its all on the coaching staff, which is abysmal in my estimation. This is the worst coached team in NHL and it is as obvious as the nose on Tim Hunter's face. This is a team that has the majority of the right pieces, but needs a few minor things to happen. They are close. Treliving just needs to make the right tweaks, which I am not sure he has the confidence to do.
I can't think of any franchise center who played regularily on the 3rd line, particularily at wing at that. One or the other, occasionally, sure. Never both.
Well I guess you didn't think very hard because Joe Thornton played 4th line wing his entire rookie season and that obviously ruined his development. Oh no wait, he turned into a franchise centre miraculously. Plenty of time for Bennett to turn into a 1st liner even if it may be as a winger.
Your logical arguments have been replaced by nonsensical rants. I'm left with no choice but to put you on ignore.
Depends if you think Sean Monahan will miraculously develop into Patrice Bergeron or plateau into Ryan Smyth.
Since Sam Bennett is a 3rd line winger, the glass being half-full or half-empty depends on your opinion of Sean Monahan. There's no McDavid on the way, that's for sure.
Last years draft wasn't supposed to have any McDavid's either but I wouldn't say the Jets and Leafs aren't looking good for the future
Whether you a half full or empty guy adding another top 5 pick can change this team. Flames are a top 10 team in Corsi. Decent 5 on 5 and Johnson has been very good, no players in the top 30 in cap hit (Gaudreau & Gio are 39th highest cap hits NHL). Throw on top Gaudreau was bad and now hurt. Worst case scenario we keep losing. If so lets see how the trade deadline goes and next draft. Also Stockton could be sending help soon
Another positive if Bennett continues to put up 3rd line numbers his contract next summer might be in the 3-4 million range. Give him 3 years at 3.5 million and see if he breaks out after.
Overall the team has been bad but there are still too many positives to assume that this rebuild needs to go on for 3 or more years.
I may be the only guy on this board that hasn't written Kanzig and Smith out of a possible future NHL career. However, neither of them are ready. They are long-term project type of players that - if they pan out - will go a long ways to adding depth and grit to this team. However, at this juncture, neither of them are ready.
Also, I love fighting, and part of me misses the 'great 80's and 90's'. They were emotional, they were fun, they were exciting... but they are gone. Anyone that thinks bringing in goons - or even legitimate prospects simply to 'goon it up' haven't been paying attention to what happens.
Other stars are targeted. Are you seriously telling me that 29 other coaches and GMs are stupid and haven't thought about bringing in goons? In fact, some have retained goons until recently. Have they had any positive effect in the game lately?
Remember when the Oilers used Steve MacIntyre? He was fairly effective at throwing the Flames off their game for about a few seasons. So effective, the Oilers actually decided to bring him back since they missed him and his ability to not only protect the players on the team, but to intimidate the other players on the ice. He was effective.
Now, you all know I am not a Brent Sutter fan, so when I provide praise on something he did, it is definitely worthy of said praise. Brent developed an insanely effective strategy to deal with MacIntyre. It completely neutered him so thoroughly, that the Oilers just gave up completely on ever dressing him for Calgary games once they realized what was happening. Anyone guess? Was it McGrattan beating him up? Nope. Was it just ignoring MacIntyre? Nope. Was it trying to ice a fast line against him and take advantage of having him on the ice? Nope, not even that.
The Flames were told that when MacIntyre was on the ice, they were to take runs at him. Get him to respond. Respond he would, every time, and the refs would just smother him and not let a 'goon' do anything. You see, the NHL has put a mandate on the refs to watch out for goons and stop both the staged fights, but more importantly, ensure that goons don't.. well... 'goon' anyone. As soon as they saw Sarich take two or three legal runs at MacIntyre, they would make sure they stayed close to him. The second he tried to respond, they would smother him and ship him off to the penalty box.
If anyone thinks bringing in a goon is going to deter slashes and such to Gaudreau (or anyone else) they are kidding themselves. I bet it would probably result in MORE slashes to try and get a PP out of it.
Know what is going to stop the slashes?
1) Have refs actually call the damn things
2) Have your special teams at least being average
3) Have the kind of team that can start taking liberties against their best players (slashes, run them through the boards, etc), or start crashing the net 'accidentally' in return. Make the game chippy on both sides, where either side can really end up with injuries - no way other coaches are going to want to risk their top players either.
Flames do need to get a bit bigger yet, but they already have the horses to do it this year. Other teams do it because they know the Flames have no response. They know the Flames try to be the most disciplined team in the league. That is what you get, IMO.
Fix your PK, and you can respond without worrying as much about being called for what you did.
Fix your PP in case the refs actually (gasp!) start calling these slashes.
Flames get this treatment from some teams because they know the Flames won't respond likewise, not because they aren't carrying a goon.
You don't need Tkachuk to 'worry about retribution' or 'policing'. You don't need any single player - other than Engelland, and only in certain situations (like having that idiot Lucic start acting up) - for policing. You do it as a team.
Johnny and whomever else slashes back. Brouwer, Ferland, Bennett, Engelland, Giordano, Tkachuk, Bouma, Hathaway, Chiasson... better yet, EVERYONE.. start playing chippy, start facewashing, start slashing and running guys, crashing the crease a bit, etc. Games will get a bit more out of hand, and you make sure your entire team targets their best players, not just the guys doing the slashing.
Personally, I will be very disappointed if the Flames don't target Suter and Staal with increased physical confrontations. Not gooning. Not some form of illegal retribution. Just play those guys physically, and quite honestly, dirty. Flames need to learn how to play dirty, filthy hockey on that razor's edge at times. Tkachuk hockey. Hathaway hockey. Ferland hockey with his legal but painful hits.
Target the 1st line guys, 1st pairing defencemen and goalies, and at worst you have an even playing field, and you make the other team think twice about doing it next time. You make other teams think twice about using it as a tactic to throw your team off.
Boudreau coached that team to do that. They did it as a unified group, without question. The Flames responded by crying to the refs about it for the majority of the game until Gaudreau's bone broke. That still could have happened in my scenario, but maybe Suter would be missing from the Wild's lineup as well for the next month or two.
Refs never like a game to get out of hand. IMO, that's the best pressure to put on them for calling those 'taps' with more frequency. Many of those 21 slashes I agree were taps, but there was a number of heavy slashes too. They saw them, and let them go. If the game got chippy, and those slashes were clearly causing a reaction (other than whining) the refs call about 5 or 6 examples of those every time.
How many teams are in our situation or have ever been in our situation?
Best player is targeted with intent to injure 20 times in a game, a major violation of the rules, with zero repercussion. I can't think of this ever happening where there are so many violations it puts our best player at risk of playing less than half the season.
I completely agree Kanzig and Smith aren't ready to be effective pros capable of contributing to the game on a nightly basis, but they are capable of annihilating a few players with huge hits.
So you put Kanzig out and he smashes Staal into the corner. We get scored on in the PK but Johnny doesn't get slashed anymore that game, Kanzig sits for the rest of the game and Johnnys line pots 2 goals because one of the top 5 talents in the league gets to play. A net gain. Kanzig, Engelland and Smith are the only ones that can get into the scrums and create fear.
Until we have that element Johnny will continually get injured. We have to take the approach as there is no other way, Smith stands up a few players in the neutral zone with bone rattling hits (even if they are a little late) and nobody wants anything to do with Johnny or Smith.
People are overstating the impact of the playoffs two seasons ago. I think most fans on this forum are knowledgeable enough to know rebuilds are not linear and there is some ups and downs. However, there was a full season between the playoffs season and now. And that season was a regression. What people don't want is 2 straight seasons of regression.
Of course we don't want that. But don't you see how writing this season off as regression when the season is only 1/4 done is jumping to conclusions and showing impatience?
This is a team that is a couple pieces short. The sky is not falling. This is a damn good mix of players. What is missing is not a generational talent like some #### show up the road was lucky enough to stumble into. What this team is missing is scoring RW and a short down defenseman. After that, its all on the coaching staff, which is abysmal in my estimation. This is the worst coached team in NHL and it is as obvious as the nose on Tim Hunter's face. This is a team that has the majority of the right pieces, but needs a few minor things to happen. They are close. Treliving just needs to make the right tweaks, which I am not sure he has the confidence to do.
For this year, it's more than missing just a few pieces though. The pieces we do have aren't good enough yet (and that's not a slam on them, they aren't supposse to be).
For us to be a perennial playoff team and a true contender, yes I agree we need to fill in some of the gaps that you mentioned, but more importantly, many of us fans are taking the good peices that we have, most of which are under 23 and taking them too the bank going "we have the right pieces" and either panicking about a lack of performance from those pieces, or blaming the coaches for not getting the most out them.
Gaurdreau, Monahan, Bennett, Tachuck and Hamilton for example are hopefully the right pieces, but they aren't fully baked today. Expectations that they should be are rediculous. People all over Monahan because he's off to a slow start, questioning his future potential, people flipping out that in his second season Bennett hasn't established himself as a top centre in this league yet and people calling for Hamilton's head because his play is inconsistent, despite not having a real partner (until recently) every season as a Calgary Flame.
These likely are the right pieces, but they aren't ready yet. It's important for folks to come to terms with that, because although I think this team should be playing better this year, it's not that we didn't get the right UFAs to compliment, and it's far to early to know if we made a coaching decision error. It's that our best players still need to get better, which is all part of the rebuild, and does require patience.
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