Flames Future: Glass Half Full or Half Empty?

[PepsiFree]

I do like the suggestion that we should just bring up someone to tell them "here's your shot, now go out there and get yourself suspended for 20 games"

A classy organisational move.

[wingmaker]

Anyone arguing that this fan base has been patient is kidding themselves. This doom and gloom bitch fest has been going on all summer. The Flames made the playoffs and changed the expectations and fans can't handle it. These are young players. They need time to develop. Brodie and Backlund are examples on our own team of players who some wrote off and are now key contributors, you don't even need to look further than that. But for some reason Monahan and Bennett are supposed to just come into the league fully formed, or show only upward progressions, otherwise they are busts.

This place has been a nightmare for months. Fair to be critical. Fair to be disappointed with the season. But there is plenty of evidence to be optimistic, including the Darren Haynes article that documented how often new coaches take 15 - 20 games before the results start showing, which is where we are now with Gulutzan and the team is looking much better.

No, they might not make the playoffs this year, but that was not a given at the start of the season anyway. Many of the posters who are doom and gloom now were saying that then, but somehow when their prediction comes true they double down and want the team fired into the sun. Why not give them some patience and enjoy cheering for a team that has young talent on it? Isn't that better than cheering for a washed up group who might squeak into a bottom playoff spot?

People make fun of Oilers fans for being overly optimistic, but that seems a hell of a lot better than whatever is going on around here these days.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

There is nothing to suggest that Kanzig going out there and run roughshod is going to magically bring the slash count down from 20 to 5. I'm honestly baffled by that.

Ever heard of negative reinforcement? A video clip of Staal limping to the bench would associate attacking Johhnys hands with injury.

How is it so hard to comprehend? If they are going to go out of their way to injure our players we have to go out of our way to stop them.

It wasn't a few slashes, it was 20. That's a huge deal. We need to keep our highest paid forward on the ice, he's just going to get hurt again unless we do something.

Any concept of sportsmanship and honor goes out the window when they are trying to hurt our best player 20 times a game. That's 20 suspendable attacks but somehow us doing the same in return is deplorable?

There is no other solution, he's just going to get hurt again.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Anyone arguing that this fan base has been patient is kidding themselves. This doom and gloom bitch fest has been going on all summer. The Flames made the playoffs and changed the expectations and fans can't handle it. These are young players. They need time to develop. Brodie and Backlund are examples on our own team of players who some wrote off and are now key contributors, you don't even need to look further than that. But for some reason Monahan and Bennett are supposed to just come into the league fully formed, or show only upward progressions, otherwise they are busts.

This place has been a nightmare for months. Fair to be critical. Fair to be disappointed with the season. But there is plenty of evidence to be optimistic, including the Darren Haynes article that documented how often new coaches take 15 - 20 games before the results start showing, which is where we are now with Gulutzan and the team is looking much better.

No, they might not make the playoffs this year, but that was not a given at the start of the season anyway. Many of the posters who are doom and gloom now were saying that then, but somehow when their prediction comes true they double down and want the team fired into the sun. Why not give them some patience and enjoy cheering for a team that has young talent on it? Isn't that better than cheering for a washed up group who might squeak into a bottom playoff spot?

People make fun of Oilers fans for being overly optimistic, but that seems a hell of a lot better than whatever is going on around here these days.

You don't think this fan base has been patient? From when are you measuring? I think I speak for a lot of fans that have been around for a while that have suffered through some incredibly lean times since 1989 and have remained steadfast since then. Flames fans have certainly proved to be patient.

[MrMastodonFarm]

No, I get fighting fire with fire, or... more fire. Bringing up Keenan Kanzig and Hunter Smith to do it is pretty silly though. Sam Bennett, Matthew Tkachuk, Troy Brouwer or anyone really are capable of a slash that could break a bone. It wasn't a major one that took Gaudreau out for over a month.

It won't stop anything though.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Anyone arguing that this fan base has been patient is kidding themselves. This doom and gloom bitch fest has been going on all summer. The Flames made the playoffs and changed the expectations and fans can't handle it.

Not true at all.

People are overstating the impact of the playoffs two seasons ago. I think most fans on this forum are knowledgeable enough to know rebuilds are not linear and there is some ups and downs. However, there was a full season between the playoffs season and now. And that season was a regression. What people don't want is 2 straight seasons of regression. That is not progress.

I don't think many people expected a cup this season, but there should be some real indication of forward progress, that this team is going to become something special. And yes this team has young core players, but it also has a solid mix of veterans. Its not a team full of teenagers.

I don't think expectations are unreasonable at all. I came into the season expecting playoffs (or really close to it) and I haven't changed that. The team is falling short.

[AcGold]

Except Tkachuk can't be an effective player 82 games a season while also focusing on deterrence. If ever there was a need for an enforcer at any time in the history of the NHL it's now.

One of the smallest most skilled players ever is being attacked against the leagues own rule book.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You don't think this fan base has been patient? From when are you measuring? I think I speak for a lot of fans that have been around for a while that have suffered through some incredibly lean times since 1989 and have remained steadfast since then. Flames fans have certainly proved to be patient.

But the current rebuild didn't start in 1989. You have to have perspective. When a team starts a rebuild, it takes YEARS. You can't cut bait part way through because the team has sucked for three decades. The rebuild is still too young to be given up on. So yes, if fans can't be patient with Monahan, Bennett, and Hamilton, or give Treliving some slack to build the team, then they are being impatient. The only quick fixes are catching lightning in a bottle which is impossible to plan for. And an argument could be made that the Flames did catch lightning in a bottle with Gaudreau.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Except Tkachuk can't be an effective player 82 games a season while also focusing on deterrence. If ever there was a need for an enforcer at any time in the history of the NHL it's now.

One of the smallest most skilled players ever is being attacked against the leagues own rule book.

Then Brower gets called for a slash not anywhere near as vicious during the Buffalo game. The Refs in this league are a joke.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Except Tkachuk can't be an effective player 82 games a season while also focusing on deterrence. If ever there was a need for an enforcer at any time in the history of the NHL it's now.

One of the smallest most skilled players ever is being attacked against the leagues own rule book.

Deterrents don't work, it's why enforcers are pretty much extinct.

I can't combat this type of emotion.

[robertsfanatic]

it's in my signature...

the Flames definitely annoy the heck out of me but I generally see the world through flame coloured glasses

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Not true at all.

People are overstating the impact of the playoffs two seasons ago. I think most fans on this forum are knowledgeable enough to know rebuilds are not linear and there is some ups and downs. However, there was a full season between the playoffs season and now. And that season was a regression. What people don't want is 2 straight seasons of regression. That is not progress.

I don't think many people expected a cup this season, but there should be some real indication of forward progress, that this team is going to become something special. And yes this team has young core players, but it also has a solid mix of veterans. Its not a team full of teenagers.

I don't think expectations are unreasonable at all. I came into the season expecting playoffs (or really close to it) and I haven't changed that. The team is falling short.

Yes, and they Flames are a quarter way through this season and showing signs of improvement under a new coach even with the top players massively underperforming for the most part. There is still a very possible reality of the team making big strides this year. Or it could be, as you say, another season of regression.

Truth is, it is too early to know what we are seeing this year because of the coaching chance. And that is why I think fans are being impatient when they call the top players garbage, or the coaching staff clueless, or Treliving a failure. Change sometimes takes time, and that is what fans do not seem to have patience for.

And it might not work! And that certainly would be disappointing and would absolutely be deserving of ire. But we are not at that point yet. Plain and simple.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Then Brower gets called for a slash not anywhere near as vicious during the Buffalo game. The Refs in this league are a joke.

I guess we just hope that the call against Brower was part of a league-wide directive to start calling those types of slashes more regularly, after all the attention Gaudreau's treatment got.

[puckedoff]

Half fireball whiskey, half milk.

[polak]

"Patience"

What a ridiculous concept. This is a business. They make millions of dollars off these fans.

Here we are still going to games and giving them more money. We can complain when that money is not resulting in an entertaining experience. This is the 4th season since Iginla was traded. Rewind to that day and ask the fans how pleased they would be if they were 28th in Points % in November 4 seasons from then with the entire core locked up long term.

Stop questioning fans resolve. We're all here, talking about them and devoting our time to this team while the owners line their pockets with our money. Just because you choose to bury your head in sand and pretend like this is completely normal doesn't mean that people who don't follow suit are any worse fans than you.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by polak

Here we are still going to games and giving them more money. We can complain when that money is not resulting in an entertaining experience. This is the 4th season since Iginla was traded. Rewind to that day and ask the fans how pleased they would be if they were 28th in Points % in November 4 seasons from then with the entire core locked up long term.

Stop questioning fans resolve. We're all here, talking about them and devoting our time to this team while the owners line their pockets with our money. Just because you choose to bury your head in sand and pretend like this is completely normal doesn't mean that people who don't follow suit are any worse fans than you.

You mean if I told them that they would have a team with a 22 year old centre who had already scored 30 goals in a season, a young winger who already had been 6th in league scoring for a season, a second round playoff appearance, two other young players with high ceilings already playing regular roles, Backlund playing like a two-way superstar, a top three defence that at times has looked like the envy of the league and includes Dougie Hamilton (who had been drafted 9th overall just two years earlier). Yeah if I told them that, and also that the team had a new coach and was 28th in the league on November 4th, I think a lot of people would be pretty excited.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Deterrents don't work, it's why enforcers are pretty much extinct.

I can't combat this type of emotion.

Singular deterrents don't work. What would work is if the entire team, to a man, was willing to assault another player should they touch Johnny Gaudreau. Take the instigator. I will happily kill that penalty, or even give up a goal, if it means our franchise player is left alone.

The front has to be unified or it won't work. If Johnny gets touched, whoever did it has to get got in some way. Whether it's a fight, a slash to the back of the leg, a cross check, whatever. Someone has to exact a physical price from the opposition within a shift. Either on the offending player or on the other team's star.

A McGrattan is a waste, I agree. An entire team ready to throw down at a moment's notice? Less of a waste.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

"Patience"

What a ridiculous concept. This is a business. They make millions of dollars off these fans.

Here we are still going to games and giving them more money. We can complain when that money is not resulting in an entertaining experience. This is the 4th season since Iginla was traded. Rewind to that day and ask the fans how pleased they would be if they were 28th in Points % in November 4 seasons from then with the entire core locked up long term.

Stop questioning fans resolve. We're all here, talking about them and devoting our time to this team while the owners line their pockets with our money. Just because you choose to bury your head in sand and pretend like this is completely normal doesn't mean that people who don't follow suit are any worse fans than you.

If you don't want to give the team money, time or support - that is your personal decision to make.

I hate this talk of "burying your head in the sand" though. What a lot of complete bunk.

People are trying to have measured reactions to what is happening - and take the long view.

Maybe try to understand their POV instead of dismissing it with this stuff.

No one has even said anything about better or worse fans.

[polak]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

You mean if I told them that they would have a team with a 22 year old centre who had already scored 30 goals in a season, a young winger who already had been 6th in league scoring for a season, a second round playoff appearance, two other young players with high ceilings already playing regular roles, Backlund playing like a two-way superstar, a top three defence that at times has looked like the envy of the league and includes Dougie Hamilton (who had been drafted 9th overall just two years earlier). Yeah if I told them that, and also that the team had a new coach and was 28th in the league on November 4th, I think a lot of people would be pretty excited.

Really? Because if you told me all of that but then admitted that the defense you mention as being the envy of the league is last in GA for the 2nd season in a row, that Dougie Hamilton has been a trainwreck in his own zone and is signed for 5 years, that Giordano is 33 years old and playing some of the worst hockey of his career on his first year of his 6 year, 6.75 million dollar contract and that our offensive success was mostly powered by a system that abandoned defensive awareness in favor of high flying hockey and immediately dried up the moment that was reigned in, I'd say it sounds a lot like the Young Guns days where we also had a young star winger, a decent center playing with him and some promising young players "with high ceilings".

I'd also be sure to mention that we made the playoffs in the 2nd year after the Iginla trade and then came in 26th the year after when everyone figured out how to defend against that high flying offensive system you mentioned earlier and again, are trending to most likely do the same again this year.

Might want to throw in that the team is neither fast nor big and that this new coach currently has the Flames at or near the bottom of every statistical category.

Things are peachy in Flames land, how could the fans possibly be frustrated with how events are turning out.

I'd also mention that the Flames are still top 10 in attendance and that CP is as busy as always just has a growing subset that isn't drinking the kool-aid as heavy as some of the other posters and this seems to annoy the users that just want to sit around a campfire, hold hands, sing kumbaya while talking about how everything is going to be alright and patting each other on the back for being "such great fans of such a great franchise"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by polak

I'd also mention that the Flames are still top 10 in attendance and that CP is as busy as always just has a growing subset that isn't drinking the kool-aid as heavy as some of the other posters and this seems to annoy the users that just want to sit around a campfire, hold hands, sing kumbaya while talking about how everything is going to be alright and patting each other on the back for being "such great fans of such a great franchise"

I get that you don't take anything seriously, as you've admitted to just making stupid comments while you're bored at work, but a lot of the stuff you post really brings down the level of discussion.

You don't have to be so indignant and insulting to everyone just because we aren't interested in entertaining your self-declared stupidity all the time.