I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Dion]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He was god awful in the post-season and certainly wasn't one of their leaders.
If he was so awesome how come Florida didn't make any effort to re-sign him?

Agreed. Hudlers best days are behind him and I suspect he won't be in the NHL next season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

What are you talking about? The Caps were 15-5-1 in the first 21 games of last season. Also they have a way more talented roster then the Flames do.

Well other than that they were hovering around .500

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He was god awful in the post-season and certainly wasn't one of their leaders.
If he was so awesome how come Florida didn't make any effort to re-sign him?

And then had to wait until August just to get a one year deal

[FlamesFan68]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He was god awful in the post-season and certainly wasn't one of their leaders.
If he was so awesome how come Florida didn't make any effort to re-sign him?

Agreed, he wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't know how he was utilized. Do you honestly rate players on whether GMs sign players!?!? ROFL Develop some backbone and make your own opinions! If I want the Flames perspective I'll go to CalgaryFlames.com How many players have not been signed by teams and have gone out and done exceedingly well? If GMs were right all the time we would never have any controversy at all. LOL That however is not the case, and not even close! Sorry people that don't recognize Hudler's skill not only offensively but defensively are ill informed. Hudler was very well taught through the Red Wings system, and is still and will be an effective player when not injured.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Agreed, he wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't know how he was utilized. Do you honestly rate players on whether GMs sign players!?!? ROFL Develop some backbone and make your own opinions! If I want the Flames perspective I'll go to CalgaryFlames.com How many players have not been signed by teams and have gone out and done exceedingly well? If GMs were right all the time we would never have any controversy at all. LOL That however is not the case, and not even close! Sorry people that don't recognize Hudler's skill not only offensively but defensively are ill informed. Hudler was very well taught through the Red Wings system, and is still and will be an effective player when not injured.

lol. Well, about that.....

[Caged Great]

It seems like some people forget that Chicago started their rebuild in 2002 or so. The same with the Kings and Penguins. They waffled for a number of years. Remember when Bell Calder and Arnason were supposed to lead the team into the future.

They as a team regressed before they got better. Same thing with Los Angeles, they fell apart, which led to them getting Doughty. The Penguins just rolled in the mud for long time before they started to get better.

Calgary had a great year two years ago. Half their team failed last year and different pieces are failing this year. It happens. The literal worst case scenario in this situation is that the Flames will get another high quality prospect in the draft and get rid of about 12 or so million dollars in bad contracts that can be spent elsewhere to address the problems the team is going through. With 4 of the top 8 prospects being RW, and the Flames lacking a high end RW, if the worst thing happens and the Flames are in the same spot at the end of the year roughly they were a year ago, they will fill the #1 thing the organization lacks.

I can understand the frustration, but nobody ever said that a rebuild was going to be fun. It's usually a whole lot of bad hockey until things can be figured out. We are well on our way, but there is not a thing that can be done to fix the team today without kneecapping the team's future. Just have to wait and it sucks.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Agreed, he wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't know how he was utilized. Do you honestly rate players on whether GMs sign players!?!? ROFL Develop some backbone and make your own opinions! If I want the Flames perspective I'll go to CalgaryFlames.com How many players have not been signed by teams and have gone out and done exceedingly well? If GMs were right all the time we would never have any controversy at all. LOL That however is not the case, and not even close! Sorry people that don't recognize Hudler's skill not only offensively but defensively are ill informed. Hudler was very well taught through the Red Wings system, and is still and will be an effective player when not injured.

Yeah it's crazy I do consider whether or not a GM is interested in bringing a player back as a strong indicator of their effectiveness. Crazy eh! But rest assured my dislike of Hudler is nothing new

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Agreed, he wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't know how he was utilized. Do you honestly rate players on whether GMs sign players!?!? ROFL Develop some backbone and make your own opinions! If I want the Flames perspective I'll go to CalgaryFlames.com How many players have not been signed by teams and have gone out and done exceedingly well? If GMs were right all the time we would never have any controversy at all. LOL That however is not the case, and not even close! Sorry people that don't recognize Hudler's skill not only offensively but defensively are ill informed. Hudler was very well taught through the Red Wings system, and is still and will be an effective player when not injured.

GMs are paid to evaluate players. Florida management passed on Hudler. No one signed him until late August and the Stars gave him only a 1 year, $2M contract. I guess all those teams are "ill informed".

Hudler had no points in 4 games and was -3 when he got hurt, or sick or whatever is keeping him out.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He was god awful in the post-season and certainly wasn't one of their leaders.
If he was so awesome how come Florida didn't make any effort to re-sign him?

He honestly can't figure that out, either.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It seems like some people forget that Chicago started their rebuild in 2002 or so. The same with the Kings and Penguins. They waffled for a number of years. Remember when Bell Calder and Arnason were supposed to lead the team into the future.

They as a team regressed before they got better. Same thing with Los Angeles, they fell apart, which led to them getting Doughty. The Penguins just rolled in the mud for long time before they started to get better.

Calgary had a great year two years ago. Half their team failed last year and different pieces are failing this year. It happens. The literal worst case scenario in this situation is that the Flames will get another high quality prospect in the draft and get rid of about 12 or so million dollars in bad contracts that can be spent elsewhere to address the problems the team is going through. With 4 of the top 8 prospects being RW, and the Flames lacking a high end RW, if the worst thing happens and the Flames are in the same spot at the end of the year roughly they were a year ago, they will fill the #1 thing the organization lacks.

I can understand the frustration, but nobody ever said that a rebuild was going to be fun. It's usually a whole lot of bad hockey until things can be figured out. We are well on our way, but there is not a thing that can be done to fix the team today without kneecapping the team's future. Just have to wait and it sucks.

The Hawks were really bad in 2002 but how did you conclude that's when they started their rebuild? They went through coaching and management changes and I would say 2007 is a more appropriate date.

If the Hawks of 2002 are the model then this Flames team will be torn apart long before they are a contender.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point that it may take a while and some restarts before things get going. But what people are debating is whether we have the right pieces and management in place right now.

If being bad is what it takes to be in a rebuild, then FLames have been there for 20 years.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If being bad is what it takes to be in a rebuild, then Flames have been there for 20 years.

But we know that's not the case.
The Flames spent the better part of a decade chasing a cup for Iggy.
And in doing so both delayed the eventual re-build and ensured it would be a longer and tougher one.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The Hawks were really bad in 2002 but how did you conclude that's when they started their rebuild? They went through coaching and management changes and I would say 2007 is a more appropriate date.

If the Hawks of 2002 are the model then this Flames team will be torn apart long before they are a contender.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point that it may take a while and some restarts before things get going. But what people are debating is whether we have the right pieces and management in place right now.

If being bad is what it takes to be in a rebuild, then FLames have been there for 20 years.

What I am trying to get at is that there needs to be some patience. The team has been smart enough to be able to identify what the problem areas are and to do their best to address them.

The goaltending last year was a tire fire and cost the Flames their chance at the playoffs. Out of the entire organization's goalies that were not still in juniors, only Jon Gillies remained and a bunch of new blood was brought in, from Johnson and Elliott to Rittich and McCollum along with Parsons through the draft.

The lack of any RW was the other problem. If the Flames had enough cap space this past off season, I'm sure they would have went hard after a guy like David Backes as well as Troy Brouwer. They could only afford Brouwer though and tried to plug a few miscellaneous guys in there in hopes that one would take the job and run with it (Chiasson and Versteeg on RW at the beginning of the season). Unfortunately, bargain options are not usually able to walk in and be awesome 1st liners. It can happen occasionally, but it's rare. So here we are with a pair of 2nd/3rd line tweener RW in Brouwer and Frolik and 4th line/AHL options for the other spots.

Another part of the problem is that nobody really knows what Sean Monahan, Sam Bennett, and Dougie Hamilton are as players. Is Hamilton going to be a slightly better version of Dennis Wideman or is he going to emerge as one of the premier defenders in the NHL? Will Sam Bennett become a 60-70 point player, or is he going to top out as a 40-50 point player? Is Monahan going to be a top end 1st line C, or just and adequate one?

The Hawks were hoping that those three guys would be good enough to be their core guys and emerge as legit top line talent. However, they were more low end 2nd liners that were given prime ice time and they didn't rise to the occasion. That is also why as soon as the Hawks gave up on them, their stay in the NHL was not long. A guy like Bennett might only be a 2nd line guy and the Flames might find that they are better off dealing him down the road, just like the Oilers did with Taylor Hall. Or he might put everything together. The frustrating part is that we simply do not know.

One thing I am certain of is that the team will be targeting both another top 6 forward (likely a RW, but maybe a center if they opt to put Bennett on the wing) and a legitimate #4 defenseman after this season in free agency or at the draft. Those are the two things the team lacks right now and the management is good at identifying those problems and doing their best to fix them.

We all would be thrilled if the Flames could magically put everything together right now and become a playoff team this season, and it is entirely possible with the rest of the teams in the west and the start they are off to. The good thing is that either way, the areas that the team is weak will be fixed to some extent and the team will be even more well rounded and likely to compete for a championship. Just have to wait and see.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It seems like some people forget that Chicago started their rebuild in 2002 or so. The same with the Kings and Penguins. They waffled for a number of years. Remember when Bell Calder and Arnason were supposed to lead the team into the future.

They as a team regressed before they got better. Same thing with Los Angeles, they fell apart, which led to them getting Doughty. The Penguins just rolled in the mud for long time before they started to get better.

Let's look at Chicago for fun. here are the noteworthy picks until they became a Stanley Cup contender.

2002 Entry 21 1 Anton Babchuk D
2002 Entry 54 2 Duncan Keith D
2003 Entry 14 1 Brent Seabrook
2003 Entry 52 2 Corey Crawford
2003 Entry 245 8 Dustin Byfuglien
2004 Entry 3 1 Cam Barker
2004 Entry 32 2 Dave Bolland
2004 Entry 41 2 Bryan Bickell
2004 Entry 214 7 Troy Brouwer
2005 Entry 7 1 Jack Skille
2005 Entry 108 4 Niklas Hjalmarsson
2006 Entry 3 1 Jonathan Toews
2007 Entry 1 1 Patrick Kane
2008 Entry 11 1 Kyle Beach

There are some pretty spectacular duds in the top 10. It wasn't until they sucked so bad for so long that they got 2 franchise players in Toews and Kane.

The big difference is in the developed players in late pics, especially on defence (kinda similar to the Flames). Without those and without the gimmies, the Hawks could have been another Islanders.

We don't want to be the Hawks to be honest despite their recent success. They were the Oilers of the last decade, and had more than 1 rebuild. They went through a few management changes before getting to where they are now. While the Hawks eventually came out of it with riches, this year looks to be an extremely weak draft to be bad, with a potential Cam Barker in the wings.

The one good thing, is that after this year, the Flames are finally able to get rid of a lot of anchor contracts.

Speaking of the Islanders

1994 Entry 9 1 Brett Lindros
1995 Entry 2 1 Wade Redden
1996 Entry 3 1 J.P. Dumont
1997 Entry 4 1 Roberto Luongo
1997 Entry 5 1 Eric Brewer
1998 Entry 9 1 Mike Rupp
1999 Entry 5 1 Tim Connolly
1999 Entry 8 1 Taylor Pyatt
2000 Entry 1 1 Rick DiPietro
2000 Entry 5 1 Raffi Torres
No 2001 first round
2002 Entry 22 1 Sean Bergenheim (rebuild over!)
2003 Entry 15 1 Robert Nilsson
2004 Entry 16 1 Petteri Nokelainen
2005 Entry 15 1 Ryan O'Marra
2006 Entry 7 1 Kyle Okposo
No 2007 first round
2008 Entry 9 1 Joshua Bailey
2009 Entry 1 1 John Tavares
2009 Entry 12 1 Calvin de Haan
2010 Entry 5 1 Nino Niederreiter
2011 Entry 5 1 Ryan Strome
2012 Entry 4 1 Griffin Reinhart
2013 Entry 15 1 Ryan Pulock
2014 Entry 5 1 Michael Dal Colle
2015 Entry 16 1 Mathew Barzal
2016 Entry 19 1 Kieffer Bellows

Islanders are currently 29th

[FlamesFan68]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

GMs are paid to evaluate players. Florida management passed on Hudler. No one signed him until late August and the Stars gave him only a 1 year, $2M contract. I guess all those teams are "ill informed".

Hudler had no points in 4 games and was -3 when he got hurt, or sick or whatever is keeping him out.

Well then by your logic, "paid" GMs must not make mistakes then. They are well informed right. Again, you "informed" fans make me laugh.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Well then by your logic, "paid" GMs must not make mistakes then. They are well informed right. Again, you "informed" fans make me laugh.

Sure they make mistakes. But if I'm going to look at how valuable a player is who do I trust more as an authority? 29 GMs who passed on Hudler plus one that offered a minimal one year veteran contract or a guy on the internet? Hmmm....

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by polak

The pro-Brad fans seem to be really hung up on defending Brads trades on paper.

Us "no patience" fans as you say, aren't doubting that he can win trades or negotiate well. We doubt the plan in place. This team looks more and more like a team that is just not built well. Has no identity, no real strength and nothing really to develop. Please tell me what part of Brads plan looks like it's working to you guys? What area looks like a strength? Seems like the only thing we were good at last year, our offense, was solely due to the high flying offensive system which tanked the teams defense in favor of inflated goal totals. Now we don't have the "High flying offensive D system" or the "terrible Goalie" excuse for our defensive woes but we've also lost pretty much all of our scoring. We have a team that can't play short handed or score on the PP and hasn't really been able to do either consistently for two years under two different regimes now.

We also are being told by the optimistic fans that we shouldn't expect linear progression in a rebuild, ignoring the fact that two years of regression is not a positive sign in anyway, you can't say that and then also assume that Bennett, Hamilton, Monahan are just young players and they guaranteed to improve. Most players don't continue to improve. Lots of players show signs of some skill but can never put it together.

I don't know. Maybe you can convince me I'm wrong but things are grim so you can stop complaining that the diehard fans of the 30th place NHL team who have had to deal with 8 years of crap and (sure, I'll give it to you) 4 years of poor rebuilding garbage are beginning to get fed up.

No Identity - I agree with you. However, what was their identity for the last 3 seasons (for the most part)? "Hard working" and "Rebuilding". Let's hold that thought for a second, while we look at the 2nd major point in your post.

Linear rebuilds.

Tonnes of rebuilds are not linear. Point out the ones that have been. You will be surprised how most of them aren't.

The organization has undergone 2 philosophical changes during their rebuilds.

1) Feaster didn't care about size - he wanted skill and speed. That's fine, until Johnny breaks a finger and everyone is looking down at their skates. Burke wants a better mix. That is ongoing. I argue it is easy to build a tough but unskilled and slow team. I think it is harder, but still easy to build a fast but undersized team. Every team wants to add size, speed and skill in one package. That is why those players are so valuable.

2) Burke liked how Hartley ran things. Treliving had a different view. He is a much more analytical guy. They just made a big philosophical shift in how this team is going to play.

So identity - that relates to point 1 and 2.

Not only are most rebuilds 'up and down' processes, but when you are making changes at the philosophical level, it adds to this 'up and down' yo yo. Worst thing you can bring into this equation is impatience. I think Burke's experience in Toronto really opened his eyes, and Treliving himself has stated numerously that moves 'have to make sense long-term'. I see nothing that he is done that conflicts this.

IMO, Treliving started taking the heat as soon as he fired Hartley. Not because it was the right thing to to or the wrong thing to do, but as a GM, you seem to only have 'x' amount of head coach replacements before you get replaced - unless you have won a couple of Stanley Cups in that organization. Keep changing the coaches, and eventually the organization decides to change you. The clock started ticking the moment Hartley was fired (IMO).

However, most of his moves have been positive. He hasn't crippled the organization long-term in any way. Whatever assets used brought back long-term assets. Older players didn't get really long contracts either. Some were mistakes, but none of them really hurt this organization. The biggest thing he did is the coaching change, and we will have to see what that looks like closer to the end of the season. It may pay off in the long run, or it may just help get you your personal wish - Treliving closer to being replaced.

[Caged Great]

Looking at the Kings

2002 - Whole lot of Nothing - 1st (Grebeshkov)
2003 - 1st - Dustin Brown, couple minor players later on in Brian Boyle and Tambellini
2004 - 1st - Lauri Tukonen, whole lot of nothing after that
2005 - 1st - Kopitar, 3rd - Quick
2006 - 1sts, Bernier and Trevor Lewis
2007 - their first quality draft. Took Thomas Hickey in the 1st round, but also landed Wayne Simmonds, Alec Martinez, and Dwight King in the 2nd/4th rounds
2008 - 1st - Doughty + nothing else
2009 - 1st - Schenn. Also got Clifford, Deslauriers, and Jordan Nolan later on
2010 - 1st - Forbort, got Toffoli in the 2nd round

Like Chicago, they were mostly missing on their firsts until they lucked out with Kopitar, who only fell because he's Slovenian, and because they were terrible and got Doughty.

Calgary got Backlund in 2007, Bouma and Brodie in 2008, Ferland in 2010, Gaudreau in 2011 and Janko + Gillies + Kulak in 2012 all in the later rounds except Backlund and Janko. The rebuild only began in full once Iginla was traded in 2013 and the Flames already had a number of pieces in the system by then. Now Calgary is in the process of getting their high end talent, just like both Chicago, Los Angeles, and Pittsburgh did back 2003-2010

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But we know that's not the case.
The Flames spent the better part of a decade chasing a cup for Iggy.
And in doing so both delayed the eventual re-build and ensured it would be a longer and tougher one.

Well that is my point. Although I don't agree with the "win a cup for Iggy" characterization. I think I know what you're saying but I believe the guys running the team were trying to win a Cup for themselves too, not for Iggy. The belief was with an elite power forward and elite goalie, you always had a punchers chance. We know how it worked out obviously.

[Dan403]

We've been doing this re-build for like three whole years now.

And Hockey is an Exact Science. Its simple really.

Why don't we have CUPS!!!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well that is my point. Although I don't agree with the "win a cup for Iggy" characterization. I think I know what you're saying but I believe the guys running the team were trying to win a Cup for themselves too, not for Iggy. The belief was with an elite power forward and elite goalie, you always had a punchers chance. We know how it worked out obviously.

They got to the finals? heh heh

ETA: IT WAS IN!!!!