Who is the greatest of all time?

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Well the Oilers thread turned into a GOAT discussion so I did a quick search on the FOI forum. Some interesting discussion here (and some lifetime suspensions LoL).

For me, the GOAT revolves around Orr, Gretz and Mario. Orr did things that no one else could do, and the only one who came close was Lidstrom, but he was still miles away.

It's the same case with Wayne, but he had all those superstars around him, and he played in an era when goalies didn't know how to goalie. It begs the question, if Mario had the same type of team around him, surely he would have had 90+ goal seasons and 212+ point seasons.

I have a hard time really saying definitively who the GOAT is, but one thing is for sure. It annoys me when people say, Oh it's Wayne and there's absolutely no discussion. It's not even close. There is a lot of nuance around anointing the best over different eras.

I'm leaning towards Orr.

i think it's fair to say that the gap between wayne and the rest is more significant than the gap between jordan and the rest for example.
from a stats standpoint wayne might have been the most dominant athlete in history.
the record book belongs to wayne gretzky it's kind of ridiculous.

[CliffFletcher]

Gretzky had the best career.

But if I'm the GM of a team starting the Stanley Cup Final series and I can have any player at his peak on my roster, I take Mario.

[troutman]

Ali, bomaye.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Gretzky had the best career.

But if I'm the GM of a team starting the Stanley Cup Final series and I can have any player at his peak on my roster, I take Mario.

Yup. This for me too.
Gretz had durability and a better supporting cast to help him.
Mario though is the output of creating the ultimate hockey player. He is a video game player in real life.

[dissentowner]

What is with all this Roy is the greatest talk? Did people forget about Hasek?

[Enoch Root]

Gretzky and Orr. They were both so dominant, they changed the game.

Though I do agree that, for a series, at their bests, Mario would serve just as well.

[Robbob]

I think it is super close between the players. I also think Gretzky had a bit of a benefit of a perfect storm that IMO inflated his point total a bit. You had recent expansion/absorbing the WHA. The talent pool was rather shallow and spread thin where the difference between high end talent was rather significant coupled with an absolute jackpot in talent on a single team. Did they have five or six hall of famers from those teams? Mario didn't play with any future hall of famers until the 90's.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Gretzky and Orr. They were both so dominant, they changed the game.

Though I do agree that, for a series, at their bests, Mario would serve just as well.

I'd want Mario as my forward and Orr on defence.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I'm for Orr.

I can certainly see the argument for Gretzky, he has the longevity, his career wasn't a what-if. It's simply there for all to see.

Lemieux's ailments, while unfortunate to say the least, don't leave room for a ton of what-if. His back injury was when he was 24? Hodgkin's when he was 27. We've seen enough elite forwards to know that we usually see a peak or near peak prior to those ages. 27 year old Lemieux had a remarkable half-season, and even 30+ Lemieux had some amazing partial seasons. No doubt he closes the gap on Gretzky's records if he would have been healthy, but I feel like we did get to see "peak" Lemieux, even if it was just for a couple seasons/partial seasons.

On the other hand, I don't think we did get to see peak Orr. The guy's first knee injury happened before he entered the league. He missed time in his first season because of his knee. By the time he was 20, he wasn't able to play a game without feeling excruciating pain and having to ice his knee every game. It was so degenerate to the point he was playing on one leg by the time he was 25. He was all but out of the league by 27.

I know it's hard to compare him to today's players, but how many smooth skating offensive defensemen have their best seasons at 21? It's a lot rarer than those that go on to peak in their late 20's.

Niedermayer's best seasons offensively came when he was 30+. Lidstrom was 36 for his best offensive season. Lidstrom, like Niedermayer, was 30 by the time he got his first Norris. Karlsson's career high was last year with 82 points in 82 games as a 26 year old. Even Coffey was 24 for his best season offensively. It's not that crazy to think that we were robbed of seeing a peak Orr that would have made the 21 year old, Art Ross winning, Orr look weak in comparison. If he could win the Art Ross at 26 with one good knee, imagine what he would have done with two...

[curves2000]

I say Gretz was the best of all time and nobody will even come close to getting similar numbers to him overall.

#99 is retired league wide, the Hockey Hall of Fame waived the mandatory 3 year waiting period for him and indicated they will never do so again for any player. In terms of production the guy was out of this world.

In the recent Heritage Classic game in Winnipeg, his filthy passing skills and hockey sense where 100% evident to be as he was playing far and above his other counterparts in the game. This also includes some of the best players the game has ever seen such as Jari Kurri etc

Bobby Orr was special but I never got to see him play since I am too young. His career was simply amazing but he wasn't able to live up to his full potential given the injuries.

Both Bobby Orr and Gretz have said simply put that Gordie Howe is the best ever. He had all the skills in terms of scoring, toughness, ruggedness, fighting and insane longevity.

Everybody has their own opinions but one way of looking at the numbers in favor of Gretzky was this.

He is the #1 goal scorer in NHL history and #1 in points. If you subtract every single goal he ever scored in the NHL he is still the leader in points based on assists. Ponder that for a minute and try to apply that to any other logic such as a business. The level of performance separation is incredible.

All of the players mentioned though are absolute quality players

[Oling_Roachinen]

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

pffft how many Vezina trophies did he have?

[undercoverbrother]

I am leaning toward Howe, based on how complete his game was.

I can't think of anything he couldn't do on the ice, skate, pass shoot, fight, check.

Also, and this is big for me longevity.

His first NHL season was 46-47, his last was 79-80 in which he scorted 41 pts in 80 games at the age of what 50? He was able to play and adapt to the game as it changed around him.

For me it is the longevity that really seals the deal.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by handgroen

i think it's fair to say that the gap between wayne and the rest is more significant than the gap between jordan and the rest for example.
from a stats standpoint wayne might have been the most dominant athlete in history.
the record book belongs to wayne gretzky it's kind of ridiculous.

Mario played 915 NHL games and had 1723 points. I'll leave playoffs out of this.

He's a career 1.88 PPG player. Gretzky has 1487 regular season GP and 2857 points. Obviously that's insane, but it's only 0.04 PPG better than Lemieux. Gretzky is a career 1.92 PPG player.

If Mario had played the same number of games as Wayne, he ends up with 2796 points. That's without allowing for an increase in production due to more GP during the prime early years of his career.

Lemieux never played a full season, and while he plays 70+ games in four of his first five seasons, he doesn't get to that mark again until 1995-96. Conversely, Wayne played 70+ games his first eight years in the league, with his low point being a 74 game campaign in 83-84.

As things stand in real life, Wayne Gretzky would be the all time leading scorer if he'd never tallied a goal. I think, however, there's a compelling case to be made that a healthy Mario Lemieux finishes ahead of him.

But that's why they play the games. Maybe Lemieux would've been the best there ever. In real life, Gretzky is the GOAT.

If you add their playoff totals, this becomes a laugher for Gretzky. Wayne played 101 more playoff games than Mario, and scored 210 more playoff points. #### right off. I don't care how good your team is - it's not like Lemieux's team didn't also have Jaromir Jagr and Ron Francis in their 20s.

Wayne.

[flamesfever]

Bobby Orr. He was in a league of his own, a notch above everyone else on the ice.

[calgaryblood]

Mario Lemieux.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

In addition Bobby won the Hart trophy 3 times and a couple of Conn Smythe and Art Ross trophies too. The only d man to win the Art Ross/scoring title also.

[Robbob]

Francis was closer to 30 by time he played in Pittsburgh

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Hasek.

Wait, I saw Roy so I just assumed we were talking about goalies. We're talking about goalies right?

[calgaryblood]

Hasek for goalies and Lemieux for forwards.