I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't have a problem with "rebuilding" so to speak.

I have a problem with this management's definition of rebuilding, which is loading up on over-30 3rd/4th line/3rd pair players on 3+year contracts until there is no cap space to ever have the flexibility whatsoever to make a "Marian Hossa to Chicago", "Mike Richards to L.A.", "Jason Spezza to Dallas" type impact-trade/signing when the rebuild is deemed to be in its final stages. Since the "rebuild started" and Burke was brought in to be POHO, we've brought in Smid, Engelland, Bollig, Raymond, Brouwer, and we even extended Stajan. The Smid acquisition did not even resemble a Jay Feaster move, probably because it wasn't.

Three of those six contracts are off the books this summer, two more next year. Including Wideman that's 11.95 coming off the books this year and 6.35 between the Raymond cap hit, Stajan and Bouma's contract next year.. for a total of 18.35 million still to play with.

Cap hits for Backlund, goalies, Bennett and Tkachuk need to be taken into consideration but that's exactly the type of cap room to do what you suggested.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't have a problem with "rebuilding" so to speak.

I have a problem with this management's definition of rebuilding, which is loading up on over-30 3rd/4th line/3rd pair players on 3+year contracts until there is no cap space to ever have the flexibility whatsoever to make a "Marian Hossa to Chicago", "Mike Richards to L.A.", "Jason Spezza to Dallas" type impact-trade/signing when the rebuild is deemed to be in its final stages. Since the "rebuild started" and Burke was brought in to be POHO, we've brought in Smid, Engelland, Bollig, Raymond, Brouwer, and we even extended Stajan. The Smid acquisition did not even resemble a Jay Feaster move, probably because it wasn't.

There are other teams that are rebuilding, too, some that started around when we did, that are simply much further along. Buffalo. Toronto.

Our rebuild more closely resembles the Oilers' rebuild circa 2014 what with their acquisitions of guys like Benoit Pouliot, Mark Fayne, Nikita Nikitin, Andrew Ference, with term and dollars that put them against the cap while being the worst team in the league. Actually scratch that because they were actually able to pull the plug quickly to flip some bad/not working veteran contracts (Smid/Perron) for prospects/picks. It's scary to think our GM's competence level is close to Craig MacTavish but it's becoming more and more clear. "It's a process" is just Trespeak for "Stay the course and we're better visually". Unlike them however there is no McDavid in our future.

I very much disagree with your opinion. What 30 something has Treliving acquired? Brouwer and I guess Versteeg? Raymond was brought in to replace Cammalleri when he turned down a 3 year offer from the Flames. Raymond came in coming off a 19 goal 45pt season and was 28 at the time. Treliving couldn't just bank of Gaudreau being an instant star but that happened and Raymond flopped horribly. The Stajan, Wideman contracts were inherited by Treliving. Billing was acquired after playing 82 games with the Hawks the previous season. Turned out to be a dud but we are talking about a 3rd rounder and 300k in current cap space as 900k is buried in the minors

Smid totally reaked like a Feaster trade you are kidding yourself if it didn't. Engellend has proven to be a good signing. Also how are Toronto, or Buffalo ahead of the Flames in terms of a rebuild?

You also speak of flexibility to make a Hossa to Chicago (free agent signed to an illegal contract per today's CBA), Richards to LA/Speeza to Dallas. Can I ask you WTF was the Hamilton trade? To me that is a perfect example of using cap space and assets to acquire a player that his old team couldn't afford to keep. Instead of acquiring a 30 year old player we got a 22 year old. Treliving used assets he got by trading Glencross in the middle of a playoff race to do it.

You compare the Flames rebuild to the Pilers butninask you how the heck is Calgary supposed to get better veterans? They can't overly on term and dollars for better but still mediocre players like Okposo, Lucic, Erickson. They can't trade all their picks and prospects for aging vets either. They had some in house (Gio, Stajan, Wideman, Backlund). The Flames had needs for guys like Brouwer and Frolik and while they were not cheap they also are not crippling contracts.

The Flames also can't just gift Jankowski, Kulak, Shinkaruk, Wotherspoon etc too minutes as these players need to earn spots and take them from veterans.

Based on your criticisms I don't see how anyone could accomplish what you want realistically. I think Treliving has done a fairly good job. I certainly question the Elliott and Gulutzan moves as I was skeptical when they occurred and they look bad today. Not every move will be a winner. Treliving has restored the reputation of Calgary being a team that does well on trades and we have been able to scoop a top free agent the past 2 years with reasonable contracts.

[Dan403]

OP: I disagree with the premise of this entire thread.

[polak]

The pro-Brad fans seem to be really hung up on defending Brads trades on paper.

Us "no patience" fans as you say, aren't doubting that he can win trades or negotiate well. We doubt the plan in place. This team looks more and more like a team that is just not built well. Has no identity, no real strength and nothing really to develop. Please tell me what part of Brads plan looks like it's working to you guys? What area looks like a strength? Seems like the only thing we were good at last year, our offense, was solely due to the high flying offensive system which tanked the teams defense in favor of inflated goal totals. Now we don't have the "High flying offensive D system" or the "terrible Goalie" excuse for our defensive woes but we've also lost pretty much all of our scoring. We have a team that can't play short handed or score on the PP and hasn't really been able to do either consistently for two years under two different regimes now.

We also are being told by the optimistic fans that we shouldn't expect linear progression in a rebuild, ignoring the fact that two years of regression is not a positive sign in anyway, you can't say that and then also assume that Bennett, Hamilton, Monahan are just young players and they guaranteed to improve. Most players don't continue to improve. Lots of players show signs of some skill but can never put it together.

I don't know. Maybe you can convince me I'm wrong but things are grim so you can stop complaining that the diehard fans of the 30th place NHL team who have had to deal with 8 years of crap and (sure, I'll give it to you) 4 years of poor rebuilding garbage are beginning to get fed up.

[JiriHrdina]

So basically you don't have the patience for a proper re-build.
Fine.
But this is what it takes.
Stick it out or not - that's up to you.

[polak]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

So basically you don't have the patience for a proper re-build.
Fine.
But this is what it takes.
Stick it out or not - that's up to you.

A proper rebuild doesn't go backwards. Especially after the team decides to lock up the core long term.

[DeluxeMoustache]

The team 3 years ago was in a lot of close games and showed signs of what they built off the next year.
2 years ago was not perfect, but made the playoffs.
A step back last year rationalized by the 3 goalie start, Brodie's injury, Hamilton's greenness, and then too much Hiller. Oh, and advanced stats.

So far this year has been a new kind of awful on the ice. The excuses have been top players missing training camp, new coach, then the expected 18-20 games of adjustment.

These excuses are now expired and what you moving forward see is what you get.

The GM and coach should feel heat. There is a massive fall from trending up and "lucking" in to the second round of the playoffs, to being a laughingstock on the ice, the absolute worst team in the entire league to this point.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

A proper rebuild doesn't go backwards. Especially after the team decides to lock up the core long term.

Why? Because you don't want it to go backwards? Sometimes you have to take a step back to take steps forward.
I largely care mostly about whether or not this organization is moving closer to being a regular contender. Not a once in a decade fluke.
So I look at the overall assets in the organization more than the standings.
The rise in standings will come in time, as the overall talent level in the organization improves.
Right now it isn't good enough.
And it hasn't been for damn near 30 years.
A lucky playoff run 2 years ago doesn't change that.
Eye on the prize - which is being able to compete for the mug on a regular basis.

You are thinking too much in absolutes. "A proper rebuild doesn't go backwards".
So every time a year gets off to a bad start you BLOW IT ALL UP!!!!!?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by polak

A proper rebuild doesn't go backwards. Especially after the team decides to lock up the core long term.

It's definitely not going backwards. The Flames were bad last year and this group is basically the same aside from modest upgrades in net and Troy Brouwer, who is not going to amount to much more than a small piece.

The team will still likely finish ahead of last years group when all is said and done. Another solid draft and a few shrewd moves are still required to start getting over the hump.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The team will still likely finish ahead of last years group when all is said and done. Another solid draft and a few shrewd moves are still required to start getting over the hump.

The team will finish better then last year based on what? The Flames are pretty much dead last in the league in every statistical category.

[polak]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why? Because you don't want it to go backwards? Sometimes you have to take a step back to take steps forward.
I largely care mostly about whether or not this organization is moving closer to being a regular contender. Not a once in a decade fluke.
So I look at the overall assets in the organization more than the standings.
The rise in standings will come in time, as the overall talent level in the organization improves.
Right now it isn't good enough.
And it hasn't been for damn near 30 years.
A lucky playoff run 2 years ago doesn't change that.
Eye on the prize - which is being able to compete for the mug on a regular basis.

You are thinking too much in absolutes. "A proper rebuild doesn't go backwards".
So every time a year gets off to a bad start you BLOW IT ALL UP!!!!!?

Have I said "Blow it all up"? I said Brad Treliving should start to take some heat.

He inherited a team that made the playoffs in his first year through no work of his own (sure, agreed, total fluke (funny how we say that now, we fought to the death defending that team back then)) and it has gotten worse each year since and no area looks like a position of strength. He should definitely be taking some heat.

If next year is another year of regression than yes I think we should retool on the fly. Doesn't have to be a "blow up" but some moves should be made to try and address weaknesses by using some of our assets and not by signing scrubs.

[Aarongavey]

The Flames have a young core. Most good teams that end up being competitors compete with a young core.

Flames key players and ages

Gaudreau - 23
Monahan - 21
Bennett - 20
Backlund - 27
Brouwer - 31
Tkachuk - 18
Frolik - 28

Hamilton - 23
Giordano - 32
Brodie - 26

Tampa for comparison

Kucherov - 23
Stamk - 26
Filpulla - 32
Johnson -26
Killorn -26
Namestnkiov - 23
Drouin - 21
Palat - 25

Hedman - 25
Stralman - 30

During the Hawks first run Kane, Toews, Versteeg, Ladd, Bolland, Keith, Barker, Buff, Brouwer, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson were all under the age of 25. It is not uncommon for good teams to compete with a core around the same age as the current Flames. What is more common is if you can't compete when your best players are 21-26 you are not likely to ever compete. That year may not be this year, but it is rare for a team to suck with truly elite young players like the Flames allegedly have.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by polak

12/13 - Year 1 (25th)
13/14 - Year 2 (27th)
14/15 - Year 3 (16th)
15/16 - Year 4 (26th)
16/17 - Year 5 (Currently 30th in p/pg)

Personally I would go by the Oiler's way of classifying rebuild years, which means officially the Flames rebuild doesn't start until 2019.

[Strange Brew]

Treliving gets a lot of credit for selling off pending UFA's at the deadline to the highest bidder, when the team is not very good. He has done a nice job there, I'm just not convinced that's the most important part of a successful GM's responsibility, nor is it the hardest.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

The team will finish better then last year based on what? The Flames are pretty much dead last in the league in every statistical category.

Based on the bottom six playing much better than last year, the top six being capable of playing much better than they are and the goaltending being better (I think Elliott is turning it around and if not, Anderson is just fine).

The Caps are a fantastic team and Trotz is acknowledged to be a great coach but even they were hovering around .500 at this time last year.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Caps are a fantastic team and Trotz is acknowledged to be a great coach but even they were hovering around .500 at this time last year.

What are you talking about? The Caps were 15-5-1 in the first 21 games of last season. Also they have a way more talented roster then the Flames do.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by polak

little generous here.

One top 10 scoring winger - Yes

2 promising centers - One and a half, none of which are looking like legitimate #1's.

Two Young Top Pairing D? - One and one that will HOPEFULLY be able to turn into a reliable 2nd pairing guy. Scoring a lot of points doesn't forgive his gaffs.

It's not been 3 years of rebuilding by the way.

Traded Iginla, Tanguay, Sarich and Bouwmeester and drafted Monahan in 12/13. Had all of those trades worked out we could've been competitive a lot earlier so you have to count that as year 1 of the rebuild.

12/13 - Year 1 (25th)
13/14 - Year 2 (27th)
14/15 - Year 3 (16th)
15/16 - Year 4 (26th)
16/17 - Year 5 (Currently 30th in p/pg)

So no, if you told me when we traded Iginla, that 4 years later we'd be 30th at American Thanksgiving and that we had 1 sure fire first liner, 1 sure fire first pairing D, That we had 33 year old Giordano signed for 6 more years at nearly 7 million a year and he was playing like garbage, and then some decent young 2nd line players, I would not be happy.

Gaudreau, Brodie, Tkachuk are the 3 players I'm excited about for this team at the moment. Hopefully Monahan bounces back and brings that number up to 4.... 4 players in 4 years since Iginla. One of whom was already here.

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The Flames have a young core. Most good teams that end up being competitors compete with a young core.

Flames key players and ages

Gaudreau - 23
Monahan - 21
Bennett - 20
Backlund - 27
Brouwer - 31
Tkachuk - 18
Frolik - 28

Hamilton - 23
Giordano - 32
Brodie - 26

Tampa for comparison

Kucherov - 23
Stamk - 26
Filpulla - 32
Johnson -26
Killorn -26
Namestnkiov - 23
Drouin - 21
Palat - 25

Hedman - 25
Stralman - 30

During the Hawks first run Kane, Toews, Versteeg, Ladd, Bolland, Keith, Barker, Buff, Brouwer, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson were all under the age of 25. It is not uncommon for good teams to compete with a core around the same age as the current Flames. What is more common is if you can't compete when your best players are 21-26 you are not likely to ever compete. That year may not be this year, but it is rare for a team to suck with truly elite young players like the Flames allegedly have.

The Flames don't have a Hedman. I'd also suggest Kucherov is better than any Flames forward. And the Flames don't have an elite goalie.

No doubt the Lightning have done an excellent job of building a great young team. But we also need to consider that the first core piece of the rebuild was Stamkos, who is 26. Monahan was the first Flames core piece, and he's 22. Four years ago, when Stamkos was 22, the Lightning still sucked (finishing 14th in the East).

The Lightning also show the importance of drafting top-3 (Stamkos #1 OA, Hedman #2 OA, Drouin #3 OA).

[sureLoss]

A rebuild must always move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards the Stanely Cup!

[FlamesFan68]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Wow did you already forget last season? Hudler was far worse last year than Brouwer has been for us. Terrible example.



That's a bit of a simplistic breakdown. Frolik is certainly a better defensive player than Cammy. Frolik is better along the boards. Frolik is bigger and stronger. Frolik is better on the PK. Cammalleri is a better shooter by far. Very different players. I'd rather have Frolik signed long term at this stage in their careers than Cammalleri.



Treliving tried to sign Russell, much to the chagrin of many. Jokipakka is not a Treliving "signing" which was the point you were trying to make originally I thought.



Raymond is by far and away Treliving's worst move but he did eventually acknowledge it.

Engelland is better than Schlemko. You seem to have a massive blind spot when it comes to Engelland, you can't seem to admit his valuable role on the team.

I used to enjoy a lot of your posts even when I disagreed with them but they have really gone downhill lately. Some serious bias to those examples and comparisons and a lot of reaches. Hudler? Seriously?

Terrible arguments:

Hudler was hurt last January, its exactly the point the person you quoted was trying to make!

I agree Frolik is better defensively than Cammy, but with Cammy the puck spent more time in the offensive zone. Sometimes a good offense is a good defense.

Treliving may have tried signing Russell, but everyone knew at one point (even Russell) that the Flames were sellers not buyers at the trade deadline and Wideman was an injured and damaged commodity.

Hudler did awesome to finish the season with Florida and was likely one of their leaders. I honestly can't figure some of you "educated" fans out???

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

T
Hudler did awesome to finish the season with Florida and was likely one of their leaders. I honestly can't figure some of you "educated" fans out???

He was god awful in the post-season and certainly wasn't one of their leaders.
If he was so awesome how come Florida didn't make any effort to re-sign him?