I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[polak]

The only players who are really struggling this year are Monahan and Brodie.

Everyone else could have been expected to play exactly the way they are (yes including Gio). If two players not playing well causes you to be the 30th placed team then guess what, you probably deserve to be there. That's gotta be on the GM at this point.

My biggest gripe is that he went all in on the defense and now frankly, I think our d-core is pretty weak.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

IMO this is a good quality as fans can jump to conclusions but you want your GM to have some patience. There aren't a lot of quick fixes to be made in the NHL these days as trades are complicated so any moves made out of haste usually end up for the worst.

I hear you. The quick fix that i'm talking about and which is easier than trades and firing head coaches and done with minimal disruption is launching the assistant coaches. What's the cost? Why put up with it? Yes...patience could result in them working through this, but you have enough information at the moment (PP and PK are brutal). Just move on.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The Okoposo suggestion was mind-boggling stupid, like when he wanted to re-sign Smid past this season at one point. Willing to chalk both of those up to game thread emotions though.

To be fair I wanted Okposo too. But at, say, 5x5 at the most.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by btimbit

To be fair I wanted Okposo too. But at, say, 5x5 at the most.

Me too

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by btimbit

To be fair I wanted Okposo too. But at, say, 5x5 at the most.

Yeah but he got 6x7. It's neat to say we should have signed him instead of Brouwer, but he costs a million and a half more, for three more seasons.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Yeah but he got 6x7. It's neat to say we should have signed him instead of Brouwer, but he costs a million and a half more, for three more seasons.

Yeah exactly. The second the rumours around his money started I just thought "well, forget him then"

I love Brouwer. One of my favourite players on the team

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

The only players who are really struggling this year are Monahan and Brodie.

Everyone else could have been expected to play exactly the way they are (yes including Gio). If two players not playing well causes you to be the 30th placed team then guess what, you probably deserve to be there. That's gotta be on the GM at this point.

My biggest gripe is that he went all in on the defense and now frankly, I think our d-core is pretty weak.

Johnny wasn't playing nearly well enough until very recently.
Hamilton has been inconsistent
The new #1 goalie has been great sometimes, and not others. Not good enough
And let's add in Sam who hasn't taken the step many, and realistically, predicted.

So I would say their 5 or 6 most important players have all not met expectations.

Any team where that happens is going to have this kind of record.

[polak]

Hamilton is playing like he did last year.

Sam is an interesting case cause he's a highly touted pick but the NHL is littered with highly touted picks that never improve much on their rookie years. I get why fans thought we might see drastic improvement in his game but as GM you shouldn't really bank on it, especially since he didn't really improve as the season went on.

Not saying he's done improving overall in his career but his play is hardly an excuse for the GM's case at this point.

[united]

Overall I think Treliving is a competent and smart GM and the Flames are lucky to have him, but he is also one who has experienced some growing pains with it being his first time in the role. I think we've learned some things about him, and he's probably learned a few early lessons of his own.

What we know:
- Treliving has no concerns over-paying players he sees as key: (Monahan, Brouwer)
- Treliving is terrific in trade negotiations (Hamilton, Hudler, Russell)
- Treliving is good at finding impact players/signings (Frolik, Versteeg, Elliott, Johnson, Nakladal, Schlemko)

What I think he's learned the hard way - and I'm part of the conspiracy that Burke pushed him toward many of these:
- Paying a premium (trade or salary) for depth intangibles all-stars rarely works. (Engelland, Bouma, Bollig, and arguably Brouwer [TBD])
- Giving coaches too much say in roster assembly is dangerous and ill-advised due to their inherent favourites. (Chiasson, Grossman, Ramo)

Going forward, assuming Treliving has learned from his errors - thankfully mostly minor ones - I'm glad to have him in charge. The handling of Byron's departure, Bollig's acquisition, Chiasson's signing (Jooris for 600?), Grossman's signing (Nakladal) were obvious mistakes when they happened, but again thankfully relatively minor and easily corrected.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by united

Overall I think Treliving is a competent and smart GM and the Flames are lucky to have him, but he is also one who has experienced some growing pains with it being his first time in the role. I think we've learned some things about him, and he's probably learned a few early lessons of his own.

What we know:
- Treliving has no concerns over-paying players he sees as key: (Monahan, Brouwer)
- Treliving is terrific in trade negotiations (Hamilton, Hudler, Russell)
- Treliving is good at finding impact players/signings (Frolik, Versteeg, Elliott, Johnson, Nakladal, Schlemko)

What I think he's learned the hard way - and I'm part of the conspiracy that Burke pushed him toward many of these:
- Paying a premium (trade or salary) for depth intangibles all-stars rarely works. (Engelland, Bouma, Bollig, and arguably Brouwer [TBD])
- Giving coaches too much say in roster assembly is dangerous and ill-advised due to their inherent favourites. (Chiasson, Grossman, Ramo)

Going forward, assuming Treliving has learned from his errors - thankfully mostly minor ones - I'm glad to have him in charge. The handling of Byron's departure, Bollig's acquisition, Chiasson's signing (Jooris for 600?), Grossman's signing (Nakladal) were obvious mistakes when they happened, but again thankfully relatively minor and easily corrected.

I strongly disagree with the bolded. I firmly believe Byron's exceptional speed, consistent aggressive play in spite of his size, enthusiasm, low salary, and respect and influence on his team mates were greatly missed. I think it's the failure to appreciate the overall contribution of guys like Byron that can drastically change the chemistry of a team, and cause it to regress...especially when it's done primarily to increase the size of the team.

I also think failure to adequately address goaltending is a major weakness.

IMO acquiring Hamilton was also a mistake. I think we would probably be better off if we had gone ahead and made the draft picks.

Also IMO replacing Hartley was one of the worst things to happen.

This team is a mess, and heads should roll if we don't start improving.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Yeah but he got 6x7. It's neat to say we should have signed him instead of Brouwer, but he costs a million and a half more, for three more seasons.

6x7 for a 28 year old first liner is how teams contend.
4.5x4 for a 31 year old third liner is horrible and how teams end up blowing it all up and giving up on their first liners thinking they are the problem.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

6x7 for a 28 year old first liner is how teams contend. .

Sure but we're still working in a salary cap system I believe.

[GranteedEV]

A salary cap system where we're paying the difference between Brouwer and Okposo's salary to AHL LW Brandon Bollig.

[MrMastodonFarm]

For seven years?
Brouwer is overpaid, not a painful amount but he got his ufa premium. Four years isn't that long so I'm fine with it though. Seven years for Okopso, whose never broken 30 goals an broke the 60 point barrier just once is tough. Especially with the guys we had to sign at the time, and still have to sign going forward.

I'll remember your point threshold of 1st liner though! Your classifications tend fluctuate

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Johnny wasn't playing nearly well enough until very recently.
Hamilton has been inconsistent
The new #1 goalie has been great sometimes, and not others. Not good enough
And let's add in Sam who hasn't taken the step many, and realistically, predicted.

So I would say their 5 or 6 most important players have all not met expectations.

Any team where that happens is going to have this kind of record.

This. Which really means this team may simply not be as good as fans think they should be. Which end of day comes back to GM but its a little early for pitchforks yet.
Biggest mistake IMO is paying premiums for non first line plyers in free agency. Keeps doing it every year.

[northcrunk]

Wasn't Monahan on a 6 game point streak before last night? He isn't producing at the same rate but he seems fine out there. Making plays just no finish.

Wideman with so many minutes though..........

Ferland needs to be a wrecking ball every game. Flames goalie gets snowed and Ferland just stands there with a dumb look on his face.

[FlamesFan68]

Interesting that criticism of President of Hockey Operations gets locked down on the same day, but the criticism of the General Manager goes on... I'm beginning to hate this new "model" that teams have adopted. Kind of like the Senate in politics, above criticism and a job for life because there's always someone else to blame.

[northcrunk]

Amazing. Scared of the bear I guess.

[VladtheImpaler]

I think the main issue in terms of team construction is that our team is relatively slow, relative to other teams and prevailing trends. We are a fairly plodding team, aside from a few shifty players, and really don't have anyone that can "stretch" the ice. Worse, while being slow, we are also not "big" and cannot control the game like the Kings, for instance. Thus, being neither fish nor fowl, we are just... no good. I think, without getting into the pros and cons of any specific moves, the main fault I see is "philosophical" construction. Average sized players of average speed will not win anything - if you cannot have both, at least have one...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

For seven years?

With Brad T on the job, you can bank on it. If not Bollig then he'll find some other Grossmann type scrub to pay the difference to.

Brouwer is overpaid, not a painful amount but he got his ufa premium.

Wrong. It is a painful amount. Just not to you, who seems fine with bad hockey.

Four years isn't that long so I'm fine with it though.

30th place in points percentage. An apologist like you would be "fine with it" for sure.

Seven years for Okopso, whose never broken 30 goals an broke the 60 point barrier just once is tough.

He's broken 60 twice, and over the last five seasons averages a 65 point pace.

Especially with the guys we had to sign at the time, and still have to sign going forward.

Yes how badly we had to sign Monahan to 6.325 instead of a sensible bridge deal (until a time where some of Treliving's disaster contracts like Mason Raymond are no longer active) to see if he can prove he hasn't plateaued.

We didn't even have to buy Raymond out. We could have gone without Brouwer and be in the exact sample place we are right now in the standings, while having more cap space ready to be spent next offseason.

Sorry, but none of Treliving's actions were forced upon him.