I don't know, you might feel differently if you lived here. I'm not nearly as left leaning as Witty, nor am I likely as quick to call racism, but I've heard enough comments over the last 8 years from random people to know there is a lot of truth in what Witty is saying. Trump's birth certificate thing fueled a lot of those fires too.
Because "racism" tends to be treated as if it's only the KKK, it's only David Duke, it's only guys in white hoods leading a mob to lynch someone. But racism happens in a million tiny way too. Obama faced a whole lot of backlash that I don't think he would have faced if he were white. If he was a white man from Hawaii, he wouldn't have spent half of his presidency fighting off claims that he's not American.
Michelle Obama has been everything you'd want from a First Lady--intelligent, eloquent, graceful, funny, down-to-earth, determined to make the country better--and yet listening to these people talk, you'd think she'd made a mockery of her role as First Lady, with how much they can't wait to see her gone. And I doubt there would be so much distaste for her if she wasn't a black woman.
Give me a single reason, any single reason, why someone would have reason to complain about Michelle Obama as a first lady, or their daughters?
Basically, if you really hate Obama, even for reasons other than his being black, you probably don't think much of the Obamas, or Michelle.
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Again, you always go for the extreme view. I'm not saying that these people are trying to find a KKK meeting to join in on, or that they're going to join the Nazi party. But racism isn't a black or white issue, racism can be incredibly overt, or it can be subtle, in a way that the person doesn't even quite grasp how racist they're being.
See, here's the thing. What do you think "racism" means? For me, it's devaluation of a group of people as worth less - thinking that they're less intelligent or less capable or of worse character - on the basis of their race.
I'd agree that there are more overt forms of racism than others, certainly, and I don't think all racist people are maliciously so (some are simply ignorant), but that's the crux of it for me. If you can accidentally be a racist, without consciously harboring any prejudicial views against people of another race on the basis of their race, I just don't think the term would have the moral weight that it rightly holds.
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I don't know, you might feel differently if you lived here. I'm not nearly as left leaning as Witty, nor am I likely as quick to call racism, but I've heard enough comments over the last 8 years from random people to know there is a lot of truth in what Witty is saying. Trump's birth certificate thing fueled a lot of those fires too.
No one (that I'm aware of) is denying that there is rampant, blatant, and despicable racism in the US (as there always has been).
The contention that we're trying to convey is that it is possible to be sick of the preaching from the left without being a racist.
Do you really think only hard-right conservatives voted for Trump? So 200 counties that voted for Obama in the last election all of a sudden became KKK strongholds?
That's a good point and you got me there.
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Why is the centrist POV so difficult to understand? Why are so many otherwise intelligent people in the grips of binary, polarized thinking? Moving to an extreme doesn't counter the zealots on the other side - it fuels them.
The centrist POV is not hard to understand. If I'd had a vote, I would have voted for the centrist, and that was Clinton.
Just this past weekend, Trump hired an unabashed racist, homophobic, misogynist to be his top advisor. Couple that with the crazy stuff Trump said during the campaign (and never denied). These are not centrists. They are the extremists. Of course everyone who voted for him isn't an extremist, but they voted for one.
Just today a story came out that Bannon referred to female feminists as "a bunch of dykes" on the radio. Trump himself bragged about sexually assaulting women and said an American judge can't be trusted because his parents are from Mexico. It's not my opinion. These are real things we've actually heard these guys say.
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Basically, if you really hate Obama, even for reasons other than his being black, you probably don't think much of the Obamas, or Michelle.
See, here's the thing. What do you think "racism" means? For me, it's devaluation of a group of people as worth less - thinking that they're less intelligent or less capable or of worse character - on the basis of their race. I'd agree that there are more overt forms of racism than others, certainly, and I don't think all racist people are maliciously so (some are simply ignorant), but that's the crux of it for me. If you can accidentally be a racist, without consciously harboring any prejudicial views against people of another race on the basis of their race, I just don't think the term would have the moral weight that it rightly holds.
Regardless of intent, even those who are racist unintentionally are complicit in the problems that minorities face. Even if in ignorance you hold racist beliefs, you're still kind of racist, and if you vote in line with those beliefs, even if it's ignorance and not malicious intent--you're still helping to keep that systemic racism in place.
Not to mention that there is plenty of racism to go around. Every race and gender has people in it that are intolerant of others. Let's not try to pretend that this is a white person problem.
Hillary cared so much about getting those rust belters back to work by giving them affordable education that she didn't. Other campaigning there after the primary. Whoops.
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Just this past weekend, Trump hired an unabashed racist, homophobic, misogynist to be his top advisor.
I actually know very little about Steve Bannon except that he ran (was he editor?) Breitbart. I'm not saying you're wrong about him, but what makes you say he's an unabashed racist, homophobe and misogynist? Did he write articles to that effect? If it's possible for me to find out without actually visiting breitbart, that would be nice.
EDIT: Hah, I missed the radio quote. I'm sold.
Anyway, I don't know why people are surprised he got a job. He took over the campaign and they won. People who do that get white house jobs, that's how the process has always worked. The title "chief strategist" sounds like a media role, rather than a policy role, so at least there's that. Not saying it's a good thing, just not surprising and he could be in a role that could do more damage. Silver linings and whatnot.
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Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 11-14-2016 at 09:45 PM.
I don't know, you might feel differently if you lived here. I'm not nearly as left leaning as Witty, nor am I likely as quick to call racism, but I've heard enough comments over the last 8 years from random people to know there is a lot of truth in what Witty is saying. Trump's birth certificate thing fueled a lot of those fires too.
One of the problems here is that the Canadians don't understand just how big a problem racism is in America. It runs deep, and much of it is not the overt stuff you expect. There is so much dog whistle language used that if you are not around it you may not catch it. Before I moved down here I thought I had a pretty good understanding of America and the culture. Yeah, found out through experience that I didn't know 1/10th of it. It's easy to dismiss a lot of the stuff being talked about when you don't live in the middle of it. But when you hear about incidents of hate on your campus the reality hits home and hits home hard. It is a different culture and a very different society.
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The centrist POV is not hard to understand. If I'd had a vote, I would have voted for the centrist, and that was Clinton.
Just this past weekend, Trump hired an unabashed racist, homophobic, misogynist to be his top advisor. Couple that with the crazy stuff Trump said during the campaign (and never denied). These are not centrists. They are the extremists. Of course everyone who voted for him isn't an extremist, but they voted for one.
Just today a story came out that Bannon referred to female feminists as "a bunch of dykes" on the radio. Trump himself bragged about sexually assaulting women and said an American judge can't be trusted because his parents are from Mexico. It's not my opinion. These are real things we've actually heard these guys say.
Yet the problem is apparently that the left is too PC.
Maybe the problem is the Trump supporters don't lure the best people. They are racists and rapists. And some I assume, might be good people.
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Regardless of intent, even those who are racist unintentionally are complicit in the problems that minorities face. Even if in ignorance you hold racist beliefs, you're still kind of racist, and if you vote in line with those beliefs, even if it's ignorance and not malicious intent--you're still helping to keep that systemic racism in place.
I don't think you quite answered my question, though... did I accurately sum up what a "racist belief" is? I agree that if you hold those beliefs ignorantly (e.g. you think black people are inherently less intelligent because someone taught you that, but don't hate them as people) that would obviously still be a racist belief. But that's still a consciously held belief.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
No one (that I'm aware of) is denying that there is rampant, blatant, and despicable racism in the US (as there always has been).
The contention that we're trying to convey is that it is possible to be sick of the preaching from the left without being a racist.
Imagine how exhausting it is to be the groups that are constantly targeted by that racism?
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Originally Posted by corporatejay
Hillary cared so much about getting those rust belters back to work by giving them affordable education that she didn't. Other campaigning there after the primary. Whoops.
Lost cause. West Virginia is never going to vote Democrat, it doesn't matter who the Democrat is or what their promises are. Just like California is never going to vote Republican, no matter who the Republican is.
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Originally Posted by Jacks
Not to mention that there is plenty of racism to go around. Every race and gender has people in it that are intolerant of others. Let's not try to pretend that this is a white person problem.
But white people are the ones who still hold the majority of the power and the wealth. Most of Congress is white men. Most of the House is white men. Only the Supreme Court has any real diversity (and much of that diversity comes from Obama appointees). The Forbes 500 is dominated by white people and men.
Sure, other races can be racist, but they don't hold the power to really do anything about that racism. On the other hand, racists in positions of power in the government can restrict minorities' access to voting, which minimizes their voice and further stymies their power in this democracy. They can unfairly punish minorities for crimes that whites often get a slap on the wrist for. They can pull over black drivers at an inordinate rate compared with whites.
That's the difference between white racists and others. White racists have power.
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
I don't think you quite answered my question, though... did I accurately sum up what a "racist belief" is? I agree that if you hold those beliefs ignorantly (e.g. you think black people are inherently less intelligent because someone taught you that, but don't hate them as people) that would obviously still be a racist belief. But that's still a consciously held belief.
Yes, that's a good summation of how I'd view "racist beliefs." That inherent belief that black people are less intelligent, more violent, less cultured, etc. Even if it's ignorantly, or even if it's just so ingrained in your thought process that it's practically a subconscious reaction. It's still there and it still exists.
I'm guilty as much as anyone, I most certainly have racist thoughts that will pop up from time to time. I think that anyone who insists that they don't is lying to themselves and everyone else. We were all raised with certain prejudices, and we all have to fight against them.
Last edited by wittynickname; 11-14-2016 at 09:49 PM.
Lost cause. West Virginia is never going to vote Democrat, it doesn't matter who the Democrat is or what their promises are. Just like California is never going to vote Republican, no matter who the Republican is.
See, you say that now, but then Arnie Vinick comes along and turns your whole world upside down.
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Imagine how exhausting it is to be the groups that are constantly targeted by that racism?
Lost cause. West Virginia is never going to vote Democrat, it doesn't matter who the Democrat is or what their promises are. Just like California is never going to vote Republican, no matter who the Republican is.
But white people are the ones who still hold the majority of the power and the wealth. Most of Congress is white men. Most of the House is white men. Only the Supreme Court has any real diversity (and much of that diversity comes from Obama appointees). The Forbes 500 is dominated by white people and men.
Sure, other races can be racist, but they don't hold the power to really do anything about that racism. On the other hand, racists in positions of power in the government can restrict minorities' access to voting, which minimizes their voice and further stymies their power in this democracy. They can unfairly punish minorities for crimes that whites often get a slap on the wrist for. They can pull over black drivers at an inordinate rate compared with whites.
That's the difference between white racists and others. White racists have power.
Yes, that's a good summation of how I'd view "racist beliefs." That inherent belief that black people are less intelligent, more violent, less cultured, etc. Even if it's ignorantly, or even if it's just so ingrained in your thought process that it's practically a subconscious reaction. It's still there and it still exists.
I'm guilty as much as anyone, I most certainly have racist thoughts that will pop up from time to time. I think that anyone who insists that they don't is lying to themselves and everyone else. We were all raised with certain prejudices, and we all have to fight against them.
Wisconsin hadn't gone republican since 1984 and Michigan hadn't gone since 1988. She took them for granted. That's my point.
Imagine how exhausting it is to be the groups that are constantly targeted by that racism?
I can only imagine.
What some people seem to be ignoring however - and no one is claiming it is anywhere near as bad - is that it is also exhausting to be accused of being privileged or racist, simply because you aren't a card-carrying leftist or a visible minority.
Again NO ONE is dismissing racism, homophobia or misogyny, what we are trying to express is that other people are fed up too. Ignoring them has finally blown up in the faces of the self-righteous leftists.
Claiming that their plight (or frustration, or whatever word you want to use) isn't anywhere near as challenging as the plight of the victimized, solves nothing. As several people have stated in this thread, most people are simply concerned about their own situation and well-being.
Being constantly classified, ignored, dismissed and insulted has left them frustrated. The fact that a (con artist of a) populist would come along and stir their emotions seems hardly shocking.
Per capita income is: $20,758
Average household income is: $43,889
Reasonably large population: 51,208
98.23% white.
Probably don't really care if you culturally appropriate when dressing up as a geisha for halloween when the average person makes less than minimum wage.
And I also expect they don't like being told how easy it is being white.
Per capita income is: $20,758
Average household income is: $43,889
This is off-topic, but how do people live on this? I get cost of living is cheaper, but standardized goods, cell/cable, travel, etc, are all the same price regardless of location. How does anyone these afford to go to Disneyland? We have Alberta oil salaries and people can hardly afford a day at the parks.
And that is median income, which means you've got a lot making a lot less than that.
This is off-topic, but how do people live on this? I get cost of living is cheaper, but standardized goods, cell/cable, travel, etc, are all the same price regardless of location. How does anyone these afford to go to Disneyland? We have Alberta oil salaries and people can hardly afford a day at the parks.
And that is median income, which means you've got a lot making a lot less than that.
Disneyland??? Vacation is a nice weekend in Milwaukee.
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