[Rumour] HNIC: Coyotes and Penguins kicking tires on D. Hamilton

[polak]

Hamilton isn't a top defenseman.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by polak

Hamilton isn't a top defenseman.

No, but he's a 2nd pairing 40 point scoring 23 year old. Those don't grow on trees.

He's not here to be a top d-man, and he's not paid like a top d-man. He's a 2nd pairing guy right now, and that'll do.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Just like a new coach isn't going to fix the problems that Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, Giordano, and Bennett are experiencing?

Saying Hamilton needs to start playing considerably better now before this team is completely out of the playoffs is probably what's wrong with this forum right now. Hamilton can't make-up for Jokipakka, Kulak, Giordano, Brodie, and Wideman's failures. Their failures impact Hamilton's play just as much as Hamilton's failures impact their play. The problem with the team right now is the team itself, not any one individual player.

If, when the autopsy is run on this season (and let's not kid ourselves, it should already be underway - the season is dead), it is deemed that Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett all suck at hockey and they're the reason we're losing - then the rebuild has to start from scratch...but something tells me that just isn't the case. It's not on any one individual player, the team is failing as a team. When we have this many players failing to play up to individual expectations, something else has to be at work. The reality is that at this stage, if the team systems/coaching staff aren't to blame, then we're in a lot of trouble.

We're 16 games in. The season isn't over yet. 4 games ago this team almost turned the corner. They've also had one of the toughest schedules in the league facing 13 of their 16 games against teams who are in a playoff position right now or perennial contenders.

Certain individuals on this team need to be better and to me, Dougie Hamilton is at the forefront just based on the facts and every game I've seen this season. Obviously other players do need to step up as well i.e. Monahan, Bennett, Brouwer and etc. However, the silver lining is that I've seen a lot of improved play from Gaudreau, Giordano and Brodie.

This isn't a time to pull any punches though, if certain players are hurting the team for a prolonged period and impeding the team's ability to win games, then it's absolutely fair to criticize them. That's professional sports. Playing in the NHL and earning millions of dollars isn't all just puppies and rainbows. It can be a tough business.

[Geeoff]

On a team that missed the playoffs last season and is 5-10 so far this year, we shouldn't be adverse to trading anybody for the right return.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No, but he's a 2nd pairing 40 point scoring 23 year old. Those don't grow on trees.

He's not here to be a top d-man, and he's not paid like a top d-man. He's a 2nd pairing guy right now, and that'll do.

Is he? Last I looked he was 5th in TOI, on a bad team.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Is he? Last I looked he was 5th in TOI, on a bad team.

and 1st in points, what does that say?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Is he? Last I looked he was 5th in TOI, on a bad team.

Well nobody said coaching has been a strong suit of this team so far.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No, but he's a 2nd pairing 40 point scoring 23 year old. Those don't grow on trees.

He's not here to be a top d-man, and he's not paid like a top d-man. He's a 2nd pairing guy right now, and that'll do.

I would disagree with a lot of these points. Yes, he's definitely a 40 point defensemen. But he's 7th among defensemen in even strength ice time and not playing against the opposition's top players. Until his ice time and match ups improve. he'll be stuck on the third pair and will be overpaid doing so as he is the 18th highest paid defenseman in the league, which theoretically is top pairing money especially when his second contract isn't buying that many UFA years.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

and 1st in points, what does that say?

We have had two coaches that played him bottom pairing minutes. He wasn't selected for Team NA at the World Cup.

Maybe it says there's more to being a good defenseman than point totals? I'm not going full Ricardo here, but Hamilton hasn't been that good yet IMO.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No, but he's a 2nd pairing 40 point scoring 23 year old. Those don't grow on trees.

He's not here to be a top d-man, and he's not paid like a top d-man. He's a 2nd pairing guy right now, and that'll do.

$5.75 on a second contract is top-dman money. Seth Jones, Hamphus Lindholm, Rasmus Ristolainen all make less than Dougie. Lindholm had to hold out for a month to get less than Dougie. Three players who make less than Dougie are their teams' top defensemen.

He is paid to be a player who can carry around an Engelland or Jokipakka for 20 of his 25 minutes a night.

Hamilton is far down my list of problems this year - he's been physical enough, he hasn't been awful defensively. If they insist on doing a 4-man PP, he should be the one D. Dougie's wrister isn't as good as Gio's, but it's still very heavy. And he's got a slap shot, something Brodie certainly doesn't possess, and Gio chooses not to deploy.

Gio and Brodie on the 2nd unit with Backlund, Frolik and Tkachuk should be an excellent group that should produce offensive zone time.

It would go a long way if our idiot coach would pick defensive pairings and stick with them. Especially in the top 4. Gio and Brodie should always play together. Dougie and the better of Kulak/Jokipakka should always play together. Mix and match the bottom pair however you like, but set the friggen defense pairings. The forward lines have been pretty well set in stone since game 1, with minor exceptions, yet our defense is thrown into a blender every night.

And if I have to hear Rick Ball talk about how Brodie prefers the right side but the Flames want him on the left one more time, I will go blind. Brodie is truly the best player on the team when he's going, and messing him about like they have been is not helping. Put TJ Brodie on the right side of the ice and leave him there. Let him make those ridiculous backhand cross-ice passes in the air, in stride, and let him lead the rush. Again I see some baffling inconsistencies with the way the forwards are handled vs the defense. All I hear about with the top line is how Gutshot wants to give them more minutes, reduce responsibility etc. When it comes to the defense? Let's rotate Wideman and Grossman in again. That'll do it.

There are a great many reasons I'm not the coach, but if I had Gio, Brodie and Dougie on my roster, and none of them were going particularly well, I would alternate force feeding each of them 30 minutes a night. They will figure it out, or they will die trying. And I'd like to think that each of those three would elevate themselves to the task were it thrust upon them.

The worst thing you can do for kids is to have no expectations, right? "Oh, it's just good you showed up", participation trophies etc. And I understand not wanting to heap too much on young players when they first enter the league. Matthew Tkachuk is not meant to lead us in scoring, for obvious reasons.

Dougie is in year 2 of a 6-year contract that pays him a not insignificant amount more than his peer group. This is his fifth year in the NHL. He may not have come into the season slotted as the #1 D. He is obligated to show the team and the fans that he is capable of that. When the other two top guys aren't sprinting out of the gate, he is obligated to pick up that slack. To lead. To impact games. To be the player we moved a 1st round pick to acquire.

This post is all over the map and only some of it is responding to ComixZone, but I'm not feeling an edit. To summarize: Don't trade Dougie. Build Dougie into the player he's capable of being. Give the players more responsibility, not less.

[FlamesAddiction]

Would you give a mid-1st rounder and two 2nd round picks for him at this point?

I'm not sure that I would.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Would you give a mid-1st rounder and two 2nd round picks for him at this point?

I'm not sure that I would.

I would and I don't even like Hamilton. You use the first round pick in the hopes of getting a Hamilton but usually you wind up with an Erixon. As for the two 2nds, the last time the Flames drafted an impact player in the second round Brian Mulroney was PM.

Very unlikely that the Flames would have turned any of those picks into a player of Doug Hamiltons' calibre.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Very unlikely that the Flames would have turned any of those picks into a player of Doug Hamiltons' calibre.

Barzal and Connor were still on the board at #15. And if the Flames aren't able to ever turn 2nd round picks into decent NHLers, this is going to be a long, long rebuild.

[Benched]

TBH, I'd rather run with Brodie and Hamilton.

It's clear we're going to suck for at least 1-2 more years. Gio may not match up timeline wise....rather cash in now.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

People slamming Hamilton need to get the what you see is what you get crap out of their minds. He's 23, for D-men especially that's a pup. And say what you want his pint totals are already impressive. I don't doubt teams are looking to see if a buy lie scenario exists on what will no doubt be seen as one of the best young D talents in the league with tones of room to grow. But just because those of us around here were hoping for even more of an immediate impact, Hamilton's future potential likely hasn't dissipated around the league much.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Barzal and Connor were still on the board at #15. And if the Flames aren't able to ever turn 2nd round picks into decent NHLers, this is going to be a long, long rebuild.

Not to mention Konecny, who is almost exactly what we could use right now.

It's interesting to look back at the original poll. Most people didn't even think the trade was fair for the Flames, but an absolute steal. It seems like most people thought he was a top pairing D (or would be soon). I don't think you give up those assets and call it a steal unless you think you're getting an all-star caliber player.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=147780

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Barzal and Connor were still on the board at #15. And if the Flames aren't able to ever turn 2nd round picks into decent NHLers, this is going to be a long, long rebuild.

Barzal has yet to make his NHL team. Connor has 4 points in 16 games. The Flames' last two drafts had netted them Monahan and Bennett.

Drafting another 6 ft 180 lb centre was not what they needed to do. They needed to get a 6 ft 5 220 lb good-skating D. The guy they got needs to be better.

[flamesforcup]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Max Domi is all right but he's a LW (this team badly needs a skilled right shot RW) and it would take more than just him to land Hamilton as top defensemen are worth more than wingers.

Thats ridiculous valuation. Would u trade Bennett+ for Dumba?? Because thats basically what ur valuation is

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

Thats ridiculous valuation. Would u trade Bennett+ for Dumba?? Because thats basically what ur valuation is

I would trade Bennett for Trouba.

But I wouldn't trade Hamilton for Trouba. Hamilton has higher upside than Trouba IMO, and he has already proven more.

This is why it would be dumb to trade Hamilton.
Hamilton should have more trade value than Domi. However, that kind of seems silly on paper.
Domi for Hamilton would probably make the Flames worse. Defensemen (especially top 4) are much more important, and they're much harder to acquire.

[flamesforcup]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I would trade Bennett for Trouba.

But I wouldn't trade Hamilton for Trouba. Hamilton has higher upside than Trouba IMO, and he has already proven more.

This is why it would be dumb to trade Hamilton.
Hamilton should have more trade value than Domi. However, that kind of seems silly on paper.
Domi for Hamilton would probably make the Flames worse. Defensemen (especially top 4) are much more important, and they're much harder to acquire.

That is true in theory. But i dont see Hamilton as a top 4 dman at the moment. More like a sheltered top 6 pp specialist whose bad defensivly which is true. If we trade domi for Hamilton we instantly become a better team easily. Still dont see how people think Hamilton is a solid top 4 dman after watching him for 2 years. I guess people dont want to come to terms with reality and will just see what they want to see