CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Steveyoto

I have been to 3 home games so far this year. Yeah our arena is old and cave-esque, no natural light. But it is home. I like it. I have fun, I spend lots of money, I get in quickly, get out just as fast, no real nightmares leaving the on site parking, I feel safe....

Can someone please tell me why we "need" a new arena? or is it just because we have the oldest one in the league and have to play keeping up with the Katz's?

I am not willing to pay more than I already do to subsidize an arena through a ticket tax. I am at my threshold of per game spending. I think the funding model set out by the CSE for the NEXT project puts a large burden on the local tax payers, and removes almost all risk and cost from the CSE's shoulders both short and longterm. This to me is not acceptable.

In another post I got some negative feedback for saying that I would become an oilers fan if the local tax base ends up footing anything more than possibly donating the land. The negative feedback I received was calling me a hypocrite because I would be then cheering for a team that did the same thing and whose tax payers are now paying for a billionaire's new arena. The point I was making is that I am more passionate about not paying for someone else's business venture than I am loyal to the Flames. Ramble ramble ramble.

My own opinion is that the physical building is nothing special, your right it's a cave but it's has some real warts. The bathroom lines and lack of decent food options isn't great. Is that alone worth demo'ing and starting over? Dunno I don't think so though. What he flames really need is a new location. Being in the middle of a massive parking lot is just awful. It's so much better to be around bars and restaurants, and have an atmosphere around the building. That's why I hope they get something done.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

what makes you so mad if they threaten to leave. They don't have a right to shop around for better deals?

if them working in a free market, looking for better deals makes you mad, that's entitlement. If Seattle shows up and says here, have a nice building, of course they should consider that.

I'm not mad about it, I expect it because that's what every ownership groups does in every city across all the sports when they're looking for a new arena.

First they sell the improvement. When no one buys it, since it's never been proven that it's an economic gainer for a municipality, they go to threats.

I'm more disappointed that our ownership group is following the same path. And yes, it is their right, they'll see how people react when they start to pursue it.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

what makes you so mad if they threaten to leave. They don't have a right to shop around for better deals?

if them working in a free market, looking for better deals makes you mad, that's entitlement. If Seattle shows up and says here, have a nice building, of course they should consider that.

Of course they can look around, I think we all understand we live in a free market. The team leaving would make people sad. Fans are getting mad at the thought of the Flames using their emotions as a bargaining chip with the city. That's not an example of the buzzword de jour, entitlement.

[monkeyman]

I would like to reiterate. I'm not opposed to a new building/buildings. i'm opposed to the funding model and vision. I think if were going to spend a couple billion dollars, we should build something that is truly visionary and one that would push Calgary and it's citizens far into the future. I don't want to spend two billion dollars just to ensure smaller bathroom lines, more food choices and greater profits for a few of the cities billionaires. I don't think the plan, as presented by KK offers anything visionary or new or substantially beneficial to the average citizen.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

If course they can look around, I think we all understand we live in a free market. The team leaving would make people sad. Fans get upset at the thought of the Flames using their emotions as a bargaining chip with the city. That's not an example of the buzzword de jour, entitlement.

They aren't using their emotions. They are evaluating options. Look at what you just said.

The flames can look around, but if they do, they are making fans sad so that somehow bad. What else are they supposed to do?

Like I have said, if they get close to committing to another market, that will be the only time we will see what fans think that team is worth. Until then everyone is just blustering and bluffing.

[Flames in 07]

2x post

[KevanGuy]

I meant the Flames are using the fans' emotions as a bargaining chip with the city. And that may be unavoidable, but don't blame the fans for having the emotions. The Flames are the ones talking about moving.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

I meant the Flames are using the fans' emotions as a bargaining chip with the city. And that may be unavoidable, but don't blame the fans for having the emotions. The Flames are the ones talking about moving.

you saying 'using the fans emotions as a bargaining chip' sounds like 'showing what they are worth to the community' to me. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do if they are in fact important to the community.

[monkeyman]

Lets be honest, KK's comments had nothing to do with evaluation the teams options and everything to do with inciting a response from fans.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

you saying 'using the fans emotions as a bargaining chip' sounds like 'showing what they are worth to the community' to me. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do if they are in fact important to the community.

Reasonably dickish, but expected. We rightfully called out Katz when he was doing it, but our ownership group gets a pass?

[jaydaybay]

What irks me is the idea that if the city needs a new arena it has to be some over the top, world class facility that requires funding through the roof.

Imo mcmahon serves its purpose as a cfl/cis stadium. Just renovate it.

Build a new arena in an area in a spot that doesnt need extensive remediation (duh) and take advantage of existing infrastructure. It can still be state of the art without being extravagant. The sprint center im KC is what i always picture.

And please, make it condusive to a fun, engaging atmosphere. The dome is so airy and concrete that unless theres 19k ppl getting rowdy in the playoffs the place feels so sterile. Build a stadium that creates an experience related to the sport (or concert) ppl are watching, not the bells and whistles surrounding it.

Rogers place is an example. Ive heard from edmontonian friends that the facility is fantastic but takes away from the game and atmosphere in a sense. Rexall had to go but what was a far more engaging place to watch a game (not my take, i havent been to either rink).

I am totally on board with LanceUppercuts prediction a few pages back.

[Thunderball]

I think most people would be alright with a renovated McMahon if it was essentially gutted and re-done with a partial roof and noise controls. I think the issue is that the renovations need to go much deeper than lipstick on a pig.

The issues with McMahon are structural as well as aesthetics and location (no partial roof, bleacher seating, 60 year old concrete structure, disconnected and disjointed concourse between the sides, uneven field (apparently it curves upward a bit too much, making it very bad for soccer), poor concourse, very poor bathrooms, half measure "upgrades", limited box seating, aggressive noise bylaws and fussy neighbours).

At the end of the day, Calgary needs better than a Frankenstein monster of a football stadium that is only good for CIS football and would continue to have the dubious honour of being one of the worst buildings in the CFL.

The end result (which would likely mean 1-2 years in a modular stadium as well) needs to be on par (or better) than Mosaic, Tim Hortons and Investors Group and capable of football, soccer and outdoor events.

If McMahon can be transformed into that level of facility, I suspect the Flames could live with that in exchange for substantial city/province/federal/university support.

[corporatejay]

If one cent of city tax dollars goes to a football stadium I will lose my mind. McMahon being the worst in the CFL is a big bucket of who cares.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If one cent of city tax dollars goes to a football stadium I will lose my mind. McMahon being the worst in the CFL is a big bucket of who cares.

Prepare to lose your mind then. Every CFL stadium construction/renovation in recent memory has received the majority of its funds from the government.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Prepare to lose your mind then. Every CFL stadium construction/renovation in recent memory has received the majority of its funds from the government.

I'm not saying a new stadium won't happen, i think it will, but you have to question the logic of spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a league with a growing apathy in it's 3 largest markets. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the cfl contract in the next 10 years and if one of those teams is Toronto, I would seriously question the viability of the league as we know it today.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If one cent of city tax dollars goes to a football stadium I will lose my mind. McMahon being the worst in the CFL is a big bucket of who cares.

It's an inevitability - prepare yourself.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If one cent of city tax dollars goes to a football stadium I will lose my mind. McMahon being the worst in the CFL is a big bucket of who cares.

As is your opinion on the matter in the big picture.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If one cent of city tax dollars goes to a football stadium I will lose my mind. McMahon being the worst in the CFL is a big bucket of who cares.

This ignores the history of CFL stadiums, so I guess prepare to lose you mind.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I'm not saying a new stadium won't happen, i think it will, but you have to question the logic of spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a league with a growing apathy in it's 3 largest markets. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the cfl contract in the next 10 years and if one of those teams is Toronto, I would seriously question the viability of the league as we know it today.

I think these are valid concerns, but the problem is two-fold.

One, from a local perspective, attendance is dropping, and Calgary boasts one of the best teams. Part of that issue is now poor the experience is due to the poor conditions of the stadium. It tough to grow the game when the facilities are bush league and the experience is unpleasant to the next generation of fans they are trying to attract who expect Saddledome level at a minimum to justify the cost of a CFL game. The CFL as a whole has some work to do, but it doesn't help its image when one of their best franchises in the fourth largest market plays in a 55 year old venue that looks its age.

Two, the Stadium is one-dimensional. It can really only do football. The turf sucks and the concrete beneath is obsolete. CSA won't touch it for men's or women's international soccer. Concerts are incredibly tough to do. Olympics and World Cups are not options for McMahon as is, as we've already been overlooked twice (U20 WC and WWC).

If McMahon is converted to a top notch venue/a new stadium is built, it becomes a lot more realistic to strengthen the existing tenant in the Stamps, as well as increase the chance of a viable co-tenant (MLS, NASL, CPL, etc.) and valuable one-offs (soccer, large scale rugby, concerts, etc.).

[jaydaybay]

Agree that mcmahon needs more than a lipstick fix. Just so hard to justify a fancy new stadium for cfl/soccer/cis (all low revenue tenants). Especially if it hinders progress on a new arena. This coming from a long time stamps sth who will continue to be regardless of the stadium, so i dont have an anti-cfl bias.

The cfl is what it is and its a constant battle to retain and find fans. Personally i dont think a new stadium and the ticket price hike associated with it will magically create fan interest in the product long term. As for soccer, i really have no idea what kind of demand there is for a suitable field for anything outside of the occasional exhibition game. Definetely not enough interest to fill a 30/35k capacity stadium on any kind of regular basis. Maybe that would change if there was a better, indoor field.

Pick away at it. Scope out the field, concourse and partial roof (assuming its feasible) as separate pieces and do the upgrades outside of the 4 months per year the stadium actually gets used, over the span of a few years. Eliminate the need for an interim stadium.