PGT: President-Elect Donald J Trump

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think it would be better and different. non-college people can make a lot of money too. some college degrees never get used.

Maybe they should just stop trying for catch-all phrases to break down polling. Or maybe we should stop relying on polling since it's becoming increasingly difficult to accurately poll the modern electorate. Polling has had a bad year so it'll be interesting to see where it goes from here

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ernie

Very few voters want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear that by and large the factory industry is dead or dying and can not be truly revived. They don't want to hear about the problems of climate change if it closes down the coal plant down the street. They don't want to hear that the working public is getting more and more educated and the economy has to change to accommodate that educational maturity. Not only are the factory jobs not coming back they CAN'T come back for the next generations to build and be successful. It's a hard truth but I believe it to be the truth (your blue collar jobs are now education based. Operators in our plant have gone from high school educated to needing a 2 year technical degree for instance).

Most voters don't want to hear what is best for the overall good of their country and neighbours. They only want to know how will it affect themselves and that's it. And if you think that way and are white the place you cast your vote is obvious.

Now I'm not saying everyone is racist or anything like that. But by the same token you don't get to talk about how it's not race when there is such a strict and obvious divide on who people vote for. Just because Trump got some very slightly surprising numbers among minorities doesn't change the fact this divide is massive and should be ignored.

The US likes to pretend it's the most mature democracy in the world because (they believe) it's the oldest. It's not mature. If it were mature it would look for ways to be inclusive rather than find ways to exploit the differences so some nominee can win.

Newsflash to the nominees...you aren't supposed to be the one winning. The population is supposed to be the one who wins. And that's what happens with a true mature democracy. Differences are expressed. Ideas some together from both sides and amalgamate somewhere around the middle.

That's not true. It's alive and well but it's been moved to places like Mexico and China. Trump probably won the election on the basis of saying he would bring it back to the USA. I don't know how he's going to accomplish that outside of providing major incentives companies that build everything in the US but that's what he sold the voters.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Also, I do apologize. "Ignorant" would have been a better word than "racist", but I'm hot blooded.

because that's so much better for fostering sensible discussion.

[PsYcNeT]

Okay, it can't be revived at wages that wouldn't put American factory workers below the poverty line.

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

because that's so much better for fostering sensible discussion.

What's sensible about perpetuating a myth? That #### should be shot down as soon as it's brought up.

[nik-]

It can all come back.

$42 for a 12 pack of white cotton socks.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Okay, it can't be revived at wages that wouldn't put American factory workers below the poverty line.

Problem is that a lot of Canadian/American factory workers are overpaid for their work (especially in the automobile industry). The abolishment of unions is probably a start. If the pay were to drop from $35 to say $20/hour people would still fill those jobs. The rest would have to be done through government incentives.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by kevman

I thought this article was pretty good.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...-out-of-touch/

Yes, it looks like the conformity and insularity of college culture is finally bearing the rotten fruit that many have been predicting for years. This hits a bullseye:

While some of the political differences between educated and working-class voters is based on a dispute over hard facts, the much broader and more foundational disagreements are about norms and values. They turn on first principles grounded in the very different intuitions and stories which animate very different political cultures. Such disagreements cannot be explained by the fact that college-educated voters know some facts which non-college educated voters do not. They are about something far more fundamental...

...Thus today’s college graduates are formed by a campus culture that leaves them unable to understand people with unfamiliar or heterodox views on guns, abortion, religion, marriage, gender and privilege. And that same culture leads such educated people to either label those with whom they disagree as bad people or reduce their stated views on these issues as actually being about something else, as in Obama’s case. Most college grads in this culture are simply never forced to engage with or seriously consider professors or texts which could provide a genuine, compelling alternative view.

I've given up expecting universities to live up to their ideal as the most open forums of debate in society, places that foster and tolerate the widest diversity of viewpoints. I'd be happy if they were as intellectually and socially diverse as a typical Tim Horton's.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/5...ebunked-by-CDC

See if you'd just posted this to begin with there's a bunch of super interesting things here. I would note that this link also includes census data that seems to suggest that at least as of five years ago, you were much more likely to be living with one parent as a black youth than a white or hispanic youth, which is in line with Cliff's data.

The main point of the article appears to be that there's nothing inherent to black men that makes them care less about their kids, which I would hope is pretty obvious to anyone participating in this discussion. Cliff's point was different - that there is a much higher proportion of black families that are single-parent than in other communities, and that this contributes significantly to the overall economic disadvantage faced by black people in the USA, because a person who grew up in a single parent home (regardless of race) faces worse outcomes later in life. Again, Cliff can correct me if I'm wrong.

[White Out 403]

It's incredible to read people declare the democratic party dead.

Republic presidential candidates have won ONE popular vote in the last seven elections.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

eh.. the 'intellectual' argument has to stop.
There should be no college-educated or non college-educated voter. That's not a measurement.

Of course it is.

Three groups that tend to be more liberal: The educated, the poor and the young.

Three groups that tend to be more conservative: The uneducated, the rich and the old.

None of these are absolutes, obviously, since there is a lot of crossover. But as a generality, differentiating between the educated and the uneducated is as fair as any other group.



And I am jumping into the middle of that black kids with single parents discussion, but putting those stats beside the incarceration rate by race would be illuminating.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Problem is that a lot of Canadian/American factory workers are overpaid for their work (especially in the automobile industry). The abolishment of unions is probably a start. If the pay were to drop from $35 to say $20/hour people would still fill those jobs. The rest would have to be done through government incentives.

Nope. Even factoring in massive freight costs, getting goods from China probably costs $10-15 per hour all in. Americans are never working brutal hard labour jobs for minimal pay. That's why they need illegal Mexicans to do so many jobs Americans refuse.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

See if you'd just posted this to begin with there's a bunch of super interesting things here. I would note that this link also includes census data that seems to suggest that at least as of five years ago, you were much more likely to be living with one parent as a black youth than a white or hispanic youth, which is in line with Cliff's data.

The main point of the article appears to be that there's nothing inherent to black men that makes them care less about their kids, which I would hope is pretty obvious to anyone participating in this discussion. Cliff's point was different - that there is a much higher proportion of black families that are single-parent than in other communities, and that this contributes significantly to the overall economic disadvantage faced by black people in the USA, because a person who grew up in a single parent home (regardless of race) faces worse outcomes later in life. Again, Cliff can correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah ain't I the worst.

Regardless, he originally brought this up as a point as why blacks are targeted more by casual racists more than asians in the US, which in itself is a pretty ####ty statement.

[GirlySports]

Obama and Trump are on tv now

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Nope. Even factoring in massive freight costs, getting goods from China probably costs $10-15 per hour all in. Americans are never working brutal hard labour jobs for minimal pay. That's why they need illegal Mexicans to do so many jobs Americans refuse.

There are few brutal hard labor jobs left as factories are now all automated.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Regardless, he originally brought this up as a point as why blacks are targeted more by casual racists more than asians in the US, which in itself is a pretty ####ty statement.

What? Um, no, he didn't. He said it was the biggest reason for the difference in outcomes between blacks and asians in the USA, rather than external stereotypes:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The notion that these things are strictly a matter of external stereotypes is dumbfounding. The biggest differences between the outcomes of Asian Americans and African Americans are:

• Asians are far more likely to grow up in intact homes with a mother and father.
• Asians are far more likely to finish school and go on to post-secondary education.

You could argue that it's not the most significant factor and that other factors are more significant. You can also argue that the reason why black people are more likely to grow up in single parent homes is institutional racism. But you absolutely cannot change the point he was making to cast it in a "####ty" light.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Okay, it can't be revived at wages that wouldn't put American factory workers below the poverty line.

Exactly this. Generally speaking, we don't want to pay for what stuff is really worth. They can just ask Trump.... he buys his steel from China. There was a time and place to fight globalization, but that ship has sailed and we are in too deep now to simply push a re-set button.

The funny thing is that at one time, it was left fighting against corporations setting up factories and sweatshops in third word countries with terrible working conditions to minimize costs. People on the right defended it as capitalism and giving jobs to the poor (better for a 12 year old to work 16 hours a day at $1/hour than to not work at all! ).

Now you have people on the right complaining that all the higher paying unskilled jobs are leaving the U.S. Well, you reap what you sow. It's become the standard now for every person or household to have a car or two, a computer, multiple phones, huge wardrobes, fruits and vegetables from all over the world and in all seasons, and hundreds of other cheap items. This is all thanks to globalization and moving jobs offshore. I doubt people would be willing to take the economic and technological hit required to go back before the late 1980s in order to get those jobs back. And I doubt Trump or anyone else can do it in 4-8 years.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There are few brutal hard labor jobs left as factories are now all automated.

I wonder how many people lamenting the loss of those jobs realizes that they would pretty much need a university education to work as a plant nowadays.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Problem is that a lot of Canadian/American factory workers are overpaid for their work (especially in the automobile industry). The abolishment of unions is probably a start. If the pay were to drop from $35 to say $20/hour people would still fill those jobs. The rest would have to be done through government incentives.

Factories here pay about 4000-5000 RMB a month. That's a good factory wage. They work 10-12 hour shifts, 6 days a week (usually get Sundays off). And most western companies are now saying labour is too expensive here in China.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

They just wrapped up their presser and aren't taking questions. Reporters were yelling out questions. Obama said "we're not taking any questions", then leaned over to Trump and told him, "don't answer any of their questions even if..." and I didn't hear the last part. Apparently, Obama's coaching him.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

What? Um, no, he didn't. He said it was the biggest reason for the difference in outcomes between blacks and asians in the USA, rather than external stereotypes:



You could argue that it's not the most significant factor and that other factors are more significant. You can also argue that the reason why black people are more likely to grow up in single parent homes is institutional racism. But you absolutely cannot change the point he was making to cast it in a "####ty" light.

Except that's the context of the conversation being had. Why even bring it up if it isn't a point used to color perceptions? Each comment doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Factories here pay about 4000-5000 RMB a month. That's a good factory wage. They work 10-12 hour shifts, 6 days a week (usually get Sundays off). And most western companies are now saying labour is too expensive here in China.

That's still a very good income for high school diploma entry level work.