Alberta introduces new bill to increase vaccination rates for children

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Does it? If we sterilized everyone with sickle cell anemia we'd probably be rid of it in couple of generations. Isn't that a public good?

By sterilizing you are taking something away from someone. I mean, I guess if you feel the right to get sick and the government is taking that right away from you, but that's kind of a stretch.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Comparing vaccinations to forced sterilizations.

And I thought the craziest part of today was going to be the election.

No your right, the government should be allowed to put whatever they want into my body without consent.

Why don't we force everyone to give blood while we are at it? Proven benefits, no reason not to, saves lives.....

Actually we should give the government a DNA sample so they have it on file in case ever commit a crime it will be easy to identify people. There's a greater good to that.

[Fuzz]

Forced blood donation and organ donation isn't such a bad idea....

[GGG]

Organ donation should at least be opt out rather than opt in.

For mandatory vax people where do you fall on the flu vaccine? I prefer fines for non-vaccination. People still have a choice to be stupid but it will cost them. ManadaTory as in forced injection I don't think I could support.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Forced blood donation and organ donation isn't such a bad idea....

[Locke]

Alright, alright....now that we've gone from vaccinations, to Eugenics, to Ebola, back to Eugenics again and now to state mandated organ donation can we just all agree that surely, somehow, this is the NDP's fault?

Thank you for your time.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

What's the issue? It'd be just like paying your taxes. You like paying taxes, don't you?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GGG

Organ donation should at least be opt out rather than opt in.

For mandatory vax people where do you fall on the flu vaccine? I prefer fines for non-vaccination. People still have a choice to be stupid but it will cost them. ManadaTory as in forced injection I don't think I could support.

Flu shots have been pretty useless lately so there should be mandated flu shots or penalties for not getting the shot. Last year the flu shot was 40% to 50% effective and the year before that it was basically 0% effective. I'm a proponent of vaccination but I don't believe in mandatory or forced vaccination. Flu shots are about as good as holistic medicine.

[GGG]

Do you have a source for the efficacy of flu shots year over year. I have looked before but never found anything reliable.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GGG

Do you have a source for the efficacy of flu shots year over year. I have looked before but never found anything reliable.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2822305/ho...rta-this-year/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada...h1n1-1.3669427

[FlamesAddiction]

Just like withholding medicine or treatment if they are sick, withholding preventative medicine to prevent them from getting sick is neglectful. Should we wait until the child is harmed before stepping in?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What's the issue? It'd be just like paying your taxes. You like paying taxes, don't you?

and this year we'll be taking an arm and a leg. And a portion of your liver. Don't worry it'll grow back.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Here's another story of a couple who doesn't believe that the government should have a right to force them to give their child shots or medicine either:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...etes-1.3596882

I'm particular curious of corporatejay's thoughts on whether the parents had that right (not that they should have exercised it).

[morgin]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Here's another story of a couple who doesn't believe that the government should have a right to force them to give their child shots or medicine either:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...etes-1.3596882

I'm particular curious of corporatejay's thoughts on whether the parents had that right (not that they should have exercised it).

I'm not him, but this is a ridiculous comparison. Government mandated preventative vaccination is not the same conversation as providing the medical necessities of life to a child in your care. They are in the same hemisphere of topics, but entirely distinct subjects.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just like withholding medicine or treatment if they are sick, withholding preventative medicine to prevent them from getting sick is neglectful. Should we wait until the child is harmed before stepping in?

Yes? There is no guarantee not getting a vaccine will result in that child being harmed.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nanny+state

It's a slippery slope.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Yes? There is no guarantee not getting a vaccine will result in that child being harmed.

And there is no guarantee that giving a child treatment who is sick will make them better.

Either way, the parents need to provide them with the best chances until they are old enough to make their own decisions.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by morgin

I'm not him, but this is a ridiculous comparison. Government mandated preventative vaccination is not the same conversation as providing the medical necessities of life to a child in your care. They are in the same hemisphere of topics, but entirely distinct subjects.

Ridiculous comparison? It's far more apt than forced sterilization certainly...

The parents did not believe in insulin, did not believe their child needed insulin, did not give their child insulin. This would have likely prevented a debilitating condition.

Parents who do not believe in vaccines, do not believe their child need vaccines, and do not give their child vaccines have now made their children susceptible to debilitating diseases. Yes, it's not quite the same...in this situation the parents are not only choosing for their child but also anyone else around their child.

In any case, that was never the argument. It wasn't that vaccines were good or not good. It was that the government does not have a right to force someone to put something into their body. Insulin or polio vaccine shouldn't make a difference to that argument.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Uggh, mandatory vaccinations would be closer to the anti-smoking laws put in place a couple years ago, not eugenics. That's such a fallacy. Heck, it's closer to child endangerment laws than forced castration.

The reason why we can no longer smoke in restaurants isn't so much to protect smokers from themselves, but project other people from smokers. A non-smoker going into a restaurant or other 'public' place shouldn't be subject to carcinogens. The very same way that the public should be able to go about their day and not be subjected to diseases that should have been wiped out or otherwise low-risk non-factors. Instead, for the people who legitimately can't be vaccinated or the small percentage of people who's vaccine didn't work, they are now at risk because of these idiots. It's not about their rights, it's about everyone else's rights. And again, we are mostly talking about children who did not make the choice. They are essentially being put at risk and punished because of their idiot parents.

Their parents are no better then the ####tards who gave their children heroine to calm them down:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...heroin-9178457

"Government control over what goes into/what we do with our bodies is a historically horrible thing." I'm sure you take issue with the parents in the above story, so where do you want to draw the line? Child endangerment seems like a real good starting place.

lol what? Mandatory injections are more similar to "you can't smoke indoors" than to previous government-mandated medical issues? No wonder you're 100% for it, I don't think we're looking at this the same way at all.

The point is, there have been a significant number of examples where the government (and scientists) decided something was best for society, and we don't look back favourably.

Mandatory vaccines... where do YOU draw the line? Who can say no? Allergies? What if the allergy isn't that bad? What if the reaction is a minor inconvenience compared to the herd benefits? What if it's a bad reaction, but not life threatening? How about if it doesn't take? How many times should they try? 2? 10? Yearly for the rest of their life? If we restrict rights of those that won't, should we restrict rights to those who can't? It's all about protecting the herd, isn't it?

Mandatory vaccines for Albertans... so can anyone move here? Do we restrict based on vaccination records? What's the punishment for not vaccinating? Removing kids? Are we prepared for the increase in cost that comes with a greater commitment to children's services and the negative impact it haves on kids lives? Is being placed in the system more or less beneficial to a child than the low risk of being exposed to the mumps? Fines? Restricted access to public education? Healthcare? Etc? Is that punishing the child or punishing the parent?

Science isn't perfect, what happens if there's an issue? What if something becomes ineffective? What if a batch causes severe reactions? How many reactions until the government pulls it? People aren't able to consent, so can they sue?

Where do we draw the line in the future? Are you on board with taking whatever drug the government gives you, so long as it benefits society as a whole? No matter what?

I'm 100% on board with mass vaccinations, but I believe in the right to opt-out. I don't worry about vaccines, but I worry if the positive implications of making them mandatory will outweigh the questions long term. We could certainly start with mandatory classes on the benefits of vaccinations.

You brought up child endangerment and asked where I draw the line. I assume you're anti-abortion, correct? A % increase in the chance of getting a disease is something you're against, so a 100% decrease in the chance of life, period, must be unacceptable. Or, like most people, are you able to pretty easily draw a line where it's alright for a parent to make a decision that impacts the life of their child?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Flu shots have been pretty useless lately so there should be mandated flu shots or penalties for not getting the shot. Last year the flu shot was 40% to 50% effective and the year before that it was basically 0% effective. I'm a proponent of vaccination but I don't believe in mandatory or forced vaccination. Flu shots are about as good as holistic medicine.

Last year I got a flu shot and hit the 1 in 10 (or whatever it is) jackpot of getting flu-like symptoms from the shot. Had to take a day off work.