I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Dion

The team is weak on the wings and I find it disappointing that none of our prospects took it to the next level in training camp. Versteeg and Chaisson are not the answer.

Agreed but the bright side is definitely the fact Shinkaruk, Klimchuck, Mangipane, and Porier are doing well this year on the wing (not to mention Janko killing it as well).

It could take the organization longer than they hoped but if a couple of these guys can fill a spot in the next 2 years that is huge for the Flames and might allow them to trade more expensive players as their contracts near expiration

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm not giving BT credit for drafting Bennett and Tkachuk. Easiest picks imaginable considering both players were expected to go higher and fell into BT's lap.

That is ridiculous. Every GM gets credit or criticism for every pick made by this simple metric: Could he have reasonably done better in the position that a player is picked? The answer to this question with regards to Tkachuk and Bennett is a pretty emphatic "no."

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

It's unfortunate because B.T. was dealt a pretty lame hand that was created by an absolute farce of a managerial team in Jay Feaster and John Weisbrod. .

I don't agree with this. I would argue that Feaster/Weisbrod walked into a much worse roster, contract situation, prospect pool, as well as a mandate to compete for the playoffs.

Treliving was indeed in a rough spot after the team went to the 2nd round (for the first time in a decade) in his first year, with a roster built by feaster/weisbrod. I say rough spot, because Florida has taken a lot of flak for appearing to be a team on the rise last year, and then making so many changes going into this year.

In Treliving's assessment of the playoff qualifying roster, it wasn't a fluke, and the pieces were their to be a playoff bubble/contending team. He re-signed giordano to a contract which is far from ideal long term, didn't try to trade any players off the team, particularly wideman, who was at his his peak valuewise. He tried to ride a goaltending tandem that was just avg even the year before. In fact, he made it even worse by going the 3 headed monster problem.

I'll heed the advice of many posters here, and not judge the coaching hire just yet. But looking at the decisions to date, he has a lot to prove in assessing a roster and determining where they are at realistically.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is ridiculous. Every GM gets credit or criticism for every pick made by this simple metric: Could he have reasonably done better in the position that a player is picked? The answer to this question with regards to Tkachuk and Bennett is a pretty emphatic "no."

Again, super easy decision with those two.

Lets see how he does in the later rounds.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by polak

Again, super easy decision with those two.

Lets see how he does in the later rounds.

What about all the gamesmanship and Jedi tricks he used to get Katz to pick Draisatl and Benning to pick Joelevi?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by polak

Again, super easy decision with those two.

Lets see how he does in the later rounds.

Why are we giving GM's credit for later round picks? If I recall correctly Feaster never once saw Gaudreau play before drafting him in 2011 but he trusted Button to make that pick and it turned out. GM's WR credit for trusting their scoutsninsuppose but let's not act like they are making every pick themselves here.

[Jacks]

GM's should definitely get credit for draft picks. Let's not forget that Button was there when we picked Chucko, Pelech & Nemisz in the 1st round let alone the later rounds. If a GM doesn't interfere that is still something that they can be judged on.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Drafts are a difficult thing to gauge a GM's ability on.

For instance, did Darryl Sutter really suck at drafting? Probably at first, but there was barely any scouts employed by Calgary when he took over. Being a rookie GM made it even more difficult, as he probably didn't which scouts he could count on - who to fire and which scouts available to bring in. You make a change, and you might not know what effect that change has had until years down the road.

Sutter deserves credit for having identified a few traits of what to look for in prospects (IQ, Character) and for growing the drafting and development side of the organization.

Feaster deserves credit for realizing he isn't a good talent evaluator, and deferring to Todd Button, who continued to rely on 'IQ and Character'. Feaster also added additional scouts to the fold.

I have no idea if Burke and/or Treliving touched upon anything. There was a mandate for the Flames to 'find guys in the later rounds who could play' - but they go and draft guys like Mangiapane and Phillips.

I really believe that as fans, we don't really have any idea if a GM deserves any credit for any particular draft, except for longer-term GMs in the league who have built their scouting departments and are reaping the rewards. GMs that are around for 5 years or less, it becomes really tough to give them credit for anything. Did Feaster deserve a lot of credit for the drafts that happened under him, or were they just carry-over from the Sutter years as things became more defined and the scouts built a better reputation that GMs could more readily trust? I actually have on idea.

What I like to see is when drafting has sucked for years, I like to see a GM make major changes. When the drafting has been good for years, and the scouting staff have been in place for years, I like a GM that doesn't make changes other than some tinkering for continual improvement. Both cases deserve credit for just seeing that changes need to be made, or no major changes need to be made simply because a new GM might want to have 'his guys' on board.

I don't know who Feaster let go, and who he hired, and what the new hires he brought on pushed for at each draft. No idea if it was good or bad, or if it was just Todd Button running a tight ship.

We also like to think that picking Bennett and Tkachuk were 'easy picks', but we also don't know what the conversations were with trading that pick as teams offered, or what the conversations were with trying to move up the draft. Another GM may have bit on a trade proposal (moving up or down) and could have done better or worse at that draft.

[Mister Yamoto]

Why should a GM get credit for icing a team so bad that an NHL ready player falls right into their lap. If you draft Bennett or Tkachuk it means you really screwed up.

Remember Feaster boasting about how he drafted Stamkos? Good for you Jay.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Why should a GM get credit for icing a team so bad that an NHL ready player falls right into their lap. If you draft Bennett or Tkachuk it means you really screwed up.

Remember Feaster boasting about how he drafted Stamkos? Good for you Jay.

In Treliving's case, the team that did poorly enough to draft Bennett was largely in place by the time he got there.

In overall terms, I suspect a GM has more to do with top draft picks and relies on scouts a lot more for the later ones.

[IgiTang]

Brad got lucky with Tkachuk being on the board and Dim Jim taking Juolevi. Had Benning taken Tkachuk, then BT would have had to use his brain and skill. He didn't have to because thankfully Tkachuk fell into the organizations lap, so to speak.

I assure you, Juolevi went way too early. Chychrun fell way too far. Having to make that choice would not have been easy, on who to pick.

[GioforPM]

I'd say that Treliving has done pretty well. The extension of Brodie was great. The jury is out big time on the Gaudreau and Monahan ones but there was sure enough support on this board for both to say there is no obvious mistake. Gio as well, for that matter. I disliked the amount of Bouma's extension.

His UFAs are hit and miss but IMO the big ones, Frolik and Brouwer, have worked out well. Bollig was a misstep. Raymond was as well. Engelland is probably paid too much but is useful.

His trades have been great IMO. He has done exceptionally well as an obvious seller in getting superior returns on declining players. Compare his returns for Hudler, Russell, Glencross or even for Sven or Berra. His trade for Elliott was good IMO.

Where he's made errors they tend to be low-cost (assuming Monahan and Gaudreau play up to potential going forward).

ETA: the coaching hire he made is a huge factor which is still up in the air, but not looking great so far IMO.

[Strange Brew]

I hope Treliving feels some pressure. Every executive should.

Yes continuity is important, but not at the expense of having the wrong guy in place. Otherwise, why didn't we keep Feaster around?

I like BT but he does seem to get a lot of praise for talking about how hard he works. Is he more thorough than other GM's? I really have no clue. His "thoroughness" in hiring a new coach ended up with the Flames being the last team to fill the head coaching position this summer, which I don't believe is really a good thing.

Most of his trades have been auctions of pending UFA's at the deadline. I will be interested to see if he is able to pull off a trade that involves moving a meaningful roster player. He has not been able to shed any of the team's bad contracts.

[Joborule]

The Flames are the worst team in the league.

The longer Treliving holds on to Glutzan, the more you have to doubt Treliving's ability to be a GM since he's has constructed a team that is worst on the ice with an extra man than when they are even strength. Add in the goaltending situation last year and acquisition that amount to nothing, and it's not that good.

His ability to make trades and contracts mean squat if the team isn't going to win games. Or at least look like a NHL team.

[zukes]

I have been hesitant to jump on the fire the coach bandwagon, but I'm all in. Fire the whole staff. Bring back Hartley, promote from within, hell see what Keenan is doing, or see if Terry Crisp wants to make a comeback. Anything!

[Jaydee]

Fire Tre

[Sylvanfan]

The way this season is going, I would expect a big time house cleaning again this off season. What a freaking disaster.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by zukes

I have been hesitant to jump on the fire the coach bandwagon, but I'm all in. Fire the whole staff. Bring back Hartley, promote from within, hell see what Keenan is doing, or see if Terry Crisp wants to make a comeback. Anything!

Can we do a daily double?

Burke-Treliving

then

Gulutzan-Cameron

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The way this season is going, I would expect a big time house cleaning again this off season. What a freaking disaster.

I like Treliving and there's no doubt he's made a few mistakes but this coaching hire has put him in a bad situation as ownership won't be happy about firing two head coaches in a calendar year. I hope that ownership gives him one more coaching hire but it's possible Burke may have to take control of the team and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

[Alpine Fisher]

Bad Judgement