Bring back Bob Hartley

[jlh2640]

I did not like the timing or the actual firing however I was even more dissapointed that GG is his replacement. We look worse then last year in many areas, with mild improvement in others.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I get that some people didn't like Hartley and I agree that maybe he wasn't the guy to run with long term (I don't know either way), but it's revisionism to paint any of his seasons with the Flames as terrible or disasters. The only thing terrible about last season was the goal-tending and an untimely injury to our best defenseman last season.

It is revisionist to say the Flames' only problem last year was goaltending. Hiller was terrible, yet the Flames won quite a few games with him, just outscoring the competition. Ortio was very solid but the Flames couldn't get him multippe well-deserved wins. Ramo carried us to the longest home win streak in franchise history but again let him down in some of his best games.

This was a flawed team last year as it is this year. The reasons are a bit different with the changed systems, but last year was certainly a disaster with the exception of December. Our goaltending was not much worse than the predators' goaltending - a team that was in Round Two of the playoffs.

Given our SV%s this year it won't be long before revisionist history is talking about how awful Elliott and Johnson were.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It is revisionist to say the Flames' only problem last year was goaltending. Hiller was terrible, yet the Flames won quite a few games with him, just outscoring the competition. Ortio was very solid but the Flames couldn't get him multippe well-deserved wins. Ramo carried us to the longest home win streak in franchise history but again let him down in some of his best games.

This was a flawed team last year as it is this year. The reasons are a bit different with the changed systems, but last year was certainly a disaster with the exception of December. Our goaltending was not much worse than the predators' goaltending - a team that was in Round Two of the playoffs.

Given our SV%s this year it won't be long before revisionist history is talking about how awful Elliott and Johnson were.

If you don't think the goaltending was terrible last season, you might be the only one.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I am not arguing Hartley had the better system I am saying he had the team putting in a more consistent effort. Some of our top players look awful under Gulutzan primarily Brodie who has been terrible.

Also last season the team didn't have Elliott, Johnson, Brouwer, Tkachuk, Chaisson so I do think the group Gulutzan has to work with is better.

Biggest issue with the team is the top players are horrible right now. The eye test for me is a team that doesn't have a consistent effort every night and under Hartley the effort was there but the system didn't change and they were too predictable

On a bad team there's going to be diamonds in the rough that put up points and look pretty on paper. The Flames have a top six that still consists of a sophomore learning the center ice position. A rookie learning the pro game and a career third/fourth liner playing way out of his abilities in Chaisson. Any coach would struggle trying to get all those pieces going at once on an established playoff team.

It's been said since day one with G.G. that he want's more structure and puck control. That inherently means we're going to see the pace slow down somewhat. It doesn't mean the players aren't putting in the work.This team has been bailed out by a defensive core piling up a lot of offense for a few years under Hartley. Now that they're not scoring in buckets this year it's making the PP look real bad exposing a number of skill players that may have been able to cheat i.e the stretch pass.

The team needs more time.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I never really liked that Hartley and his guy Cloutier were fired but Flames organization favorites like Gelinas were retained. Gelinas was a big part of last season's poor showing and I feel any new coach should have the right not to be saddled with guys that failed the last head coach.

Never mind Gelinas, how about Sigalet? After the abysmal showings by Hiller/Ramo last season you'd think he would be gone too. Nope, still here.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It is revisionist to say the Flames' only problem last year was goaltending. Hiller was terrible, yet the Flames won quite a few games with him, just outscoring the competition. Ortio was very solid but the Flames couldn't get him multippe well-deserved wins. Ramo carried us to the longest home win streak in franchise history but again let him down in some of his best games.

This was a flawed team last year as it is this year. The reasons are a bit different with the changed systems, but last year was certainly a disaster with the exception of December. Our goaltending was not much worse than the predators' goaltending - a team that was in Round Two of the playoffs.

Given our SV%s this year it won't be long before revisionist history is talking about how awful Elliott and Johnson were.

Last season was the worst display of goaltending possibly in the history of the NHL. I think you may actually be able to argue that. In fact the players may still be recovering from the shock of it.

I've watched most games this season and with the exception of Elliott's first few, goaltending has been solid and I'd say probably above average.

So no, revisionist history will not say that the goaltending was bad this season unless it gets bad this season. Right now it's more of a bright spot than anything.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by heep223

Last season was the worst display of goaltending possibly in the history of the NHL. I think you may actually be able to argue that. In fact the players may still be recovering from the shock of it.

I've watched most games this season and with the exception of Elliott's first few, goaltending has been solid and I'd say probably above average.

So no, revisionist history will not say that the goaltending was bad this season unless it gets bad this season. Right now it's more of a bright spot than anything.

Respectfully, I question how you can think this.

One of the gems from Burke's chat today was that goalies should be expected to make the first save, after which the team bears some responsibility.

Look, last year the team started with no Brodie, dull Gio and deer in the headlights Dougie. A disaster for all tenders, in no small part thanks to the team.

Hiller never cane back from the bad start. Ramo played quite decently thereafter. Until that awful injury, then all went off the rails.

I cannot accept that one would look at Elliott and Johnson, getting no better results than the previous year's goalies, and give them a pass for a similar mess of a team than the guys they threw under the bus for the same reason.

This whole notion of sv% as a stat equally applied to all goalies is something that has irritated me for a long time.

Manny Fernandez and Dwayne Roloson became world beaters in a tandem under Jacques Lemaire. Look at how Mike Smith's numbers varied in different sceanarios. Many examples out there. Guys like Darryl Sutter, Tippett, Hitchcock have all somehow had good goalies.

Ramo was decent. Especially given what he had to work with. Hiller... well, he lost it. Gully's mess of a team needs to fix things in a hurry in order not to sabotage the careers of Johnson and Elliott.

Sigalet I do question because I don't see much improvement in any goalies under his watch.

I actually don't really have an issue with Elliott and Johnson. I find insufficient data to indicate that their performance in Flames silks is an upgrade over a healthy Ramo.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I cannot accept that one would look at Elliott and Johnson, getting no better results than the previous year's goalies, and give them a pass for a similar mess of a team than the guys they threw under the bus for the same reason.

For me it's that they can atleast get through games without letting in atleast one deflating stinker unlike the first few months last season. Other than Elliott's first game I can't really classify any of his other games as horrible. There's been some games where he's looked pretty meh but I'd still take him and Johnson over the trio of suck we had to suffer through last season any day.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Inferno

For me it's that they can atleast get through games without letting in atleast one deflating stinker unlike the first few months last season. Other than Elliott's first game I can't really classify any of his other games as horrible. There's been some games where he's looked pretty meh but I'd still take him and Johnson over the trio of suck we had to suffer through last season any day.

The whole key to this is the reliance on Hiller.
Better than Hiller? Wholeheartedly agree, yes.
Better than Ortio? Maybe, with the benefit of experienced goalies as alternatives.
Better than Ramo? Tbd. He had very good stretches under arguably favourable circumstances.

My idea is that Elliott and Johnson are proven under certain conditions and playing to the level their teammates allow.

I also think that we only saw Ramo play well at times and have challenges at times.

Point is, the metrics by which last year's goalies (actually Ramo because he was closest to having passed the passed the visual test in my mind) were roasted are the same metrics with which the current goalies are being given a pass.

I may take, say, Elliott-Ramo over Elliott-Johnson

But that is a moot point. What I do want to see is goalies evaluated based on performance behind a respectable D, and we can't evaluate this year's tenders based on that

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Better than Ramo? Tbd. He had very good stretches under arguably favourable circumstances.

When he's played well he's been better than Ramo ever was when he started playing decent. If Ramo was in net for the Chicago game they lose in the dying seconds rather than win in a shootout.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Sorry. "not good" coaches don't win the Jack Adams.

Yes they do haha. In fact they almost exclusively do. you'd think a poster who's been here since 2001 would not die on this hill. this narrative has been shredded a million times here the past couple years.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by saillias

Yes they do haha. In fact they almost exclusively do. you'd think a poster who's been here since 2001 would not die on this hill. this narrative has been shredded a million times here the past couple years.

Sorry, you've lost me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Adams_Award



Here is a link to Jack Adams winners. Names on that list include:
Bowman, Shero, Burns, Quenville, Demers.

Since the 2004 lockout the winners have been:

2005–06 Lindy Ruff Buffalo Sabres 1
2006–07 Alain Vigneault Vancouver Canucks 1
2007–08 Bruce Boudreau[d] Washington Capitals 1
2008–09 Claude Julien Boston Bruins 1
2009–10 Dave Tippett Phoenix Coyotes 1
2010–11 Dan Bylsma Pittsburgh Penguins 1
2011–12 Ken Hitchcock[d] St. Louis Blues 1
2012–13 Paul MacLean Ottawa Senators 1
2013–14 Patrick Roy Colorado Avalanche 1
2014–15 Bob Hartley Calgary Flames 1
2015–16 Barry Trotz Washington Capitals 1


Some are still with their team, and some are not, but all were recognized as the best in their profession the year they won.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Inferno

When he's played well he's been better than Ramo ever was when he started playing decent. If Ramo was in net for the Chicago game they lose in the dying seconds rather than win in a shootout.

Ramo did win games that all had final seconds. Can't argue with speculation.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Never mind Gelinas, how about Sigalet? After the abysmal showings by Hiller/Ramo last season you'd think he would be gone too. Nope, still here.

You can't expect fish to be able to climb trees.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Respectfully, I question how you can think this.

One of the gems from Burke's chat today was that goalies should be expected to make the first save, after which the team bears some responsibility.

Look, last year the team started with no Brodie, dull Gio and deer in the headlights Dougie. A disaster for all tenders, in no small part thanks to the team.

Hiller never cane back from the bad start. Ramo played quite decently thereafter. Until that awful injury, then all went off the rails.

I cannot accept that one would look at Elliott and Johnson, getting no better results than the previous year's goalies, and give them a pass for a similar mess of a team than the guys they threw under the bus for the same reason.

This whole notion of sv% as a stat equally applied to all goalies is something that has irritated me for a long time.

Manny Fernandez and Dwayne Roloson became world beaters in a tandem under Jacques Lemaire. Look at how Mike Smith's numbers varied in different sceanarios. Many examples out there. Guys like Darryl Sutter, Tippett, Hitchcock have all somehow had good goalies.

Ramo was decent. Especially given what he had to work with. Hiller... well, he lost it. Gully's mess of a team needs to fix things in a hurry in order not to sabotage the careers of Johnson and Elliott.

Sigalet I do question because I don't see much improvement in any goalies under his watch.

I actually don't really have an issue with Elliott and Johnson. I find insufficient data to indicate that their performance in Flames silks is an upgrade over a healthy Ramo.

The main reason that I have this view is because I watched 80 Flames games last year. And all games this year save 2.

So, I guess, visually!

Last year the goaltending made me want to puke in my hat. That definitely included Ramo. Ramo was horrible. He'd let in the most deflating stinkers at the worst time, game after game. He had great reflexes but his positioning was like a pee wee goalie.

This year the goaltending has been solid.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Never mind Gelinas, how about Sigalet? After the abysmal showings by Hiller/Ramo last season you'd think he would be gone too. Nope, still here.

After the Ramo/Hiller showings of last year i thought he would be fired. That said, can you fault him this year? Johnson has been great and Elliot started off slow but has been very good. Starting to sound like some posters just want to see a firing.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Sorry, you've lost me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Adams_Award

2012–13 Paul MacLean Ottawa Senators 1
2013–14 Patrick Roy Colorado Avalanche 1
2014–15 Bob Hartley Calgary Flames 1

Some are still with their team, and some are not, but all were recognized as the best in their profession the year they won.

MacLean, Roy and Hartley form a three year stretch where none of the Jack Adam winners are even head coaching an NHL team.

I don't think that people are necessarily saying they didn't deserve the award at the time they received it, just that it doesn't mean much of anything a year or two later. If it was awarded to the best of the best (and they still are the best of the best), then how come none of Tortella, Vigneault, Julien, Tippett, Bylsma, MacLean, Roy or Hartley even made top 10 in voting last year for the award?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by heep223

The main reason that I have this view is because I watched 80 Flames games last year. And all games this year save 2.

So, I guess, visually!

Last year the goaltending made me want to puke in my hat. That definitely included Ramo. Ramo was horrible. He'd let in the most deflating stinkers at the worst time, game after game. He had great reflexes but his positioning was like a pee wee goalie.

This year the goaltending has been solid.

Besides the first game, Elliott has looked good and makes the saves he should. I don't think he is the kind of goalie that will carry a team (and to be fair, there are probably only 4 or 5 of those in the league), but I think he at least gives the team a chance to win every night.

Last year, there were quite a few times when the Flames outplayed the other team but lost because of goal tending. You just never knew what you would get on a given night, but Elliott is pretty consistent if only good and not great.

[Justin]

What a difference 2 years makes.This came up in my FB newsfeed today as a memory from when I was poking fun at some of my Leaf/Hab friends this date in 2014 year.

Defensive Scoring Leaders:

1. Mark Giordano 15GP 4G 11A 15P +6
2. TJ Brodie 15GP 4G 10A 14P +10
.
.
.
9. Dougie Hamilton 15GP 3G 7A 10P +3

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ramo did win games that all had final seconds. Can't argue with speculation.

Weak comeback. You know exactly what save Elliott made that I'm talking about.