I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't see a system issue because I can't imagine this resembles anything close to how the coaches want them playing.

Fair enough, but you mentioned pretty much all our top players as struggling, then stated you imagine that this isn't how the coaches want them to be playing. How is what you described not a coaching issue?

Isn't their job to have the players playing their system? and if the players aren't interested or aren't able to execute then doesn't that fall on the coach?

I'm sure our star players didn't forget how to play at the NHL level, and I'm sure they want to play well and win. I'm failing to see how the coaches are above a healthy dose of criticism here.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Fair enough, but you mentioned pretty much all our top players as struggling, then stated you imagine that this isn't how the coaches want them to be playing. How is what you described not a coaching issue?

Isn't their job to have the players playing their system? and if the players aren't interested or aren't able to execute then doesn't that fall on the coach?

I'm sure our star players didn't forget how to play at the NHL level, and I'm sure they want to play well and win. I'm failing to see how the coaches are above a healthy dose of criticism here.

I don't think the coaches are above criticism. But I'm surprised that's where the bulk of it is being sent.

I think execution is the key. I think most systems can succeed but it is execution that is what makes teams good or bad.

And I think players are primarily responsible for that execution.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So if that is the case (I don't believe it is) then there should be accountability for constructing that type of team, no? Sounds like a recipe for rebuild 2.0.

I think it is too early to trigger a re-build, particularly since the key pieces are still very young.
If things continue though, you have to consider if you have the right mix of players.
That could mean moving one of the Big 3 D for a different kind of D-man.
Something like that.

[Strange Brew]

I believe everyone on this board can agree the top players are playing poorly. I am very interested in an intelligent discussion as to why that is, and what could be done about it?

It is clear this team had a horrible training camp, but you can't put all that blame on Monahan and Gaudreau. Why are the top 3 defensemen playing so poorly, especially Giordano the team leader?

Is it just bad luck they are in slumps at the same time and we need to ride it out?

Is it still about adapting to a new system and we should expect things to improve?

I am in the camp that we obviously need to give this more time. This year should be about showing progress. But that doesn't mean I'm not wondering about the quality of the coaching staff, whether we have the right core in place, and whether the management team is exercising proper judgment.

One thing is for sure. You can't fire all the players. So if long term your mantra is that its all the players fault, that's great and all. But that's like complaining about the weather without ever changing the clothes you wear.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think it is too early to trigger a re-build, particularly since the key pieces are still very young.
If things continue though, you have to consider if you have the right mix of players.
That could mean moving one of the Big 3 D for a different kind of D-man.
Something like that.

Yeah, I don't think I'd be against shuffling the rebuild if we have a poor season, and I don't think it's as undoable as many posters have suggested. I've read a lot of "This is our young core and they're all locked in now, so this is the team no matter what".

Guys like Hamilton, Monahan, Bennett could all fetch similar value, but differently skilled young players.

Maybe after this season Brad Treliving comes to the conclusion we're far enough in the rebuild that we need to start contending and feels that "upgrading" Bennett or Monahan to a similar player but a few years older (say 26, 27) with more experience might actually help us win in the next few years.

There is something to be said for having your skill spread out over to many ages and trying to consider when you feel your team is going to compete for a cup.

[JiriHrdina]

If they do have to consider a material shuffle, I think one question they should ask is if you can truly build a cup contender around a winger.
Which is to say, no one should be safe from big questions if this season doesn't go well.

[nik-]

Getting out from under one of the big contracts on D for a different type of D-man might be good, I just don't want the one moved out to be Brodie. Too good and signed to too good a deal.

If Bennett doesn't end up being an elite number 1, then we're going to have to address that, which means a stalled rebuild since that has to be in the draft. I don't know if Monahan can be the top guy on a legit cup team.

[jayswin]

That's actually one reason why I think this Giordano contract may hinder us much more than many fans think. It all looked okay on paper a couple years ago - Sign the captain and best D-man for the rest of his career, then the youth comes up and BAM! contenders.

But I really feel that the age gap might be too large for the contract we signed him to. I think everyone had visions of this coming together really quickly and Gio still being a top defender.

What will likely happen is you'll have Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, Bennett, Tkatchuk etc in their mid 20's, the team will be ready to become contenders and then all of a sudden Giordano's going to fall off and like most guys in their mid 30's it'll be a steep fall and then all of a sudden we'll be going "Oh man, we're ONE player away from competing with the big boys, if only we had that extra $6.8 mil OR 2014 Girodano."

This is a very real issue we'll be facing, imo, as much as posters jump all over me for bringing up a Giordano-less Flames team.

[jayswin]

Either way I think one realization from this season if it continues down this path is that we may have to push the rebuild ahead or pull it back.

Either push the age and experience up a little while sacrificing a star studded roster a few years down the road, or shed a bit of age and experience and understand that in a few years we'll have Tkachuck and Bennett, possibly Kylington etc more up to NHL star quality and can make a big push then and not have guys on the wrong side of 30 taking up major salary needed for young stars.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they do have to consider a material shuffle, I think one question they should ask is if you can truly build a cup contender around a winger.
Which is to say, no one should be safe from big questions if this season doesn't go well.

I think this is answered personally. The last ten cup winners have elite centers and D men. It's fantastic to have elite wingers, but it's up the middle and the back end that makes you a winner.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they do have to consider a material shuffle, I think one question they should ask is if you can truly build a cup contender around a winger.
Which is to say, no one should be safe from big questions if this season doesn't go well.

I don't see much evidence this team is being built around Gaudreau. If anything, this team is built around the back end which arguably is the part of the team that has performed the worst this year.

I n any case, hockey isn't basketball. You don't build around a single player IMO.

Of course no one should be untouchable on this team. From Burke down to Bollig. The team's lack of accomplishments speaks to that loud and clear.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If they do have to consider a material shuffle, I think one question they should ask is if you can truly build a cup contender around a winger.
Which is to say, no one should be safe from big questions if this season doesn't go well.

I can't believe this has to be said, but they aren't. They are trying to build a cup contender around a centre-wing pair. Who happen to be 23 and 22 years old right now and have been pretty damn successful (individually) to this point. But, sure. Lets suggest running Gaudreau out of town whilst blindly defending Gulutzan.

Incidentally, you pointed to 5 on 5 play being okay. All that does is belie a small sample size. Our first four games of the year were against teams that were absolutely brutal 5 on 5 last year and still suck this year. Unfortunately, our special teams caused us to utterly waste those opportunities.

Our next ten games are not against creampuffs. The Blues demonstrated last night just how awful Gulutzan's system is 5 on 5 against a decent team. And I don't have much faith it will look any better against the likes of Chicago, Washington, LA and Anaheim.

[djsFlames]

Hate to say it cause he's an awesome guy and captain, but we should cash in on Giordano while he's still fresh off that 21 goal season. Learn what we didn't with Iginla. The cap hit will limit the return a bit but at least cash in before you're at a point where you're tied down by the contract and can't get rid of it. Brodie can be every bit as good as Gio in the coming seasons and if you get a D prospect in return then you're adding to the up and coming defense pool that'll hopefully pan out when the team is truly ready to compete. I think you only keep Gio if you're extremely confident that the team competes in the near future. Sadly I don't think it looks as imminent as people were thinking/expecting. So we're looking at using Gios last legs on a team that's still up and coming. Would be more beneficiary for the Calgary flames of 2-3 years from now to deal him.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I can't believe this has to be said, but they aren't. They are trying to build a cup contender around a centre-wing pair. Who happen to be 23 and 22 years old right now and have been pretty damn successful (individually) to this point. But, sure. Lets suggest running Gaudreau out of town whilst blindly defending Gulutzan.

No one is suggesting running Gaudreau out of town. However, when people start throwing around core guys to consider swapping out - all I'm saying is that no one should be off that list.
For years Iginla was considered untouchable. And it got the franchise one run and nothing else.
They should take an unemotional view of what they need to do to get a cup.
If people are talking about Monahan, Dougie, Sam (names thrown around in the post I was replying to), etc - than why not Johnny?

[bigrangy]

Monahan should be the most available of the core guys. Gaudreau is an excellent 1LW, Gio and Brodie are (usually) excellent top pairing guys. Dougie will be.

Monahan is not an elite #1C, and without significantly improving, I don't think he can be. The dream is to trade Monahan++ for someone like Tavares or Toews or even Barkov, but that would be really hard to pull off.

Either Bennett hits his ceiling, Monahan significantly improves, or the Flames rewrite the book on cup-winning team compositions, because they don't have an elite #1C right now and they might not ever have one.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No one is suggesting running Gaudreau out of town. However, when people start throwing around core guys to consider swapping out - all I'm saying is that no one should be off that list.
For years Iginla was considered untouchable. And it got the franchise one run and nothing else.
They should take an unemotional view of what they need to do to get a cup.
If people are talking about Monahan, Dougie, Sam (names thrown around in the post I was replying to), etc - than why not Johnny?

The question is why are you even entertaining such foolishness in the first place? It is one thing to look at a player like Giordano and suggest his age might necessitate moving him. But we all know that Monahan, Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk are the core. And no, it is not going to be broken up any time soon. Nor should it be.

As far as looking at things "unemotionally" goes, this is now the second time since he's signed his contract that you have advocated trading Gaudreau. While you couched it the last time in terms of asset management a half decade from now, the only unemotional argument you could possibly make that would suggest you can get better by moving a 23-year-old star who already has a season of top-10 in scoring would be an issue of locker room cancer. So, Jiri, if it should become evident that you really do want to run Gaudreau out of town, tell me: is it because you have evidence he is a cancer, or is it emotional?

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Monahan should be the most available of the core guys. Gaudreau is an excellent 1LW, Gio and Brodie are (usually) excellent top pairing guys. Dougie will be.

Monahan is not an elite #1C, and without significantly improving, I don't think he can be. The dream is to trade Monahan++ for someone like Tavares or Toews or even Barkov, but that would be really hard to pull off.

Either Bennett hits his ceiling, Monahan significantly improves, or the Flames rewrite the book on cup-winning team compositions, because they don't have an elite #1C right now and they might not ever have one.

The main thing I think Monahan is missing from that elite status is his skating

Can that significantly improve at this stage?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, Jiri, if it should become evident that you really do want to run Gaudreau out of town, tell me: is it because you have evidence he is a cancer, or is it emotional?

Geez man. I'm not going to answer such an absurd loaded question.

I'm trying to discuss these things with you.
I'm not interested in a fight. Clearly you are.
Fight with someone else.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No one is suggesting running Gaudreau out of town. However, when people start throwing around core guys to consider swapping out - all I'm saying is that no one should be off that list.
For years Iginla was considered untouchable. And it got the franchise one run and nothing else.
They should take an unemotional view of what they need to do to get a cup.
If people are talking about Monahan, Dougie, Sam (names thrown around in the post I was replying to), etc - than why not Johnny?

It seems like such a double standard though. It's stupid and absurd to suggest firing the coach, but it's completely fair game and logical to suggest trading Johnny and Monahan who just signed to stay here long term?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

It seems like such a double standard though. It's stupid and absurd to suggest firing the coach, but it's completely fair game and logical to suggest trading Johnny and Monahan who just signed to stay here long term?

Where did I say it was stupid and absurd to suggest firing the coach? I have a different viewpoint on how much blame should be given to the players, but I don't think I've said anywhere that the opinion that the coach is bad is "stupid" or "absurd".

One of the problems with all these discussions is that people are exaggerating the position of others, and putting words in their mouths (happening on both sides). Can we try not to do that as much. I've not implied at all that it would be "stupid or absurd" to fire the coach if this season is a poor one. I don't think it would be at all.

If this season doesn't go well, all items should be considered - inclusive of firing the coach and considering if they have the right mix of players.
Teams that become over-commited to their core, when it becomes clear that core is not right, waste years.

But we are a long way off from all that.