The Lanny Papers

[WCE]

I'd rather someone be willing to change their opinion than stick to it because he has visions that Jesus and god talk to him.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by WCE@Nov 3 2004, 01:02 PM
I agree. I'd rather someone be willing to change their opinion than stick to it because he has visions that Jesus and god talk to him.

Agreed, good on Lanny for not just following something blindly.

[Cowperson]

I don't care if Lanny changes his mind. More power to him.

I simply find it hypocritical that someone would write what he did in 2001 as above, egging on the Bush agenda that actually came to pass and calling for even more, then come on the board a few years later and write this as he did last week:

And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me?

Anyway, he should be thankful for this thread. I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Cowperson

[Daradon]

Wow, perhaps the lesson is don't debate over e-mail with Cow if you think you might change you mindin the next say... 3 or 4 years...

People should be able to change their minds especially over important topics. Facts come out, ideas change, it's all natural.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 01:09 PM
I don't care if Lanny changes his mind. More power to him.

I simply find it hypocritical that someone would write what he did in 2001 as above, egging on the Bush agenda that actually came to pass and calling for even more, then come on the board a few years later and write this as he did last week:

And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me?

Anyway, he should be thankful for this thread. I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Cowperson

Hypocritical would be changing your mind over a matter of weeks, with no real reason, or harrassing someone for something you do yourself. I don't think it shows hypocracy to have a change of opinion over a 3 and a half year period with new information presented.

[Bingo]

I don't think Cow or anyone is saying a person can't change their mind ... that's pretty selective reading of this string to come to that conclusion.

If said person, however, attempts to belittle and bully, talk down to, and trash anyone that thinks differently than them, should be held accountable if they've completely abandoned their though process that was once even more right than the people he's berating.

That's weak.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 01:09 PM
Anyway, he should be thankful for this thread. I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Oh my lord.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 07:09 PM
I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Cowperson

Wow! You really are one of the most arrogant pricks aren't you? News flash! The sun does not rise and set on your forehead like you think it does, you're fecal matter does not smell like roses, and not everything YOU write or post is correct. Everyone is wrong from time to time and everyone has the right to change their mind as time passes.

Oh, and you are also very good at making yourself look like a pathetic person as well. You're looking very small Cow. Very small indeed. I'd recommend a handle change to "calf", but someone already is using it.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Daradon+Nov 3 2004, 07:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Daradon @ Nov 3 2004, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 01:09 PM
I don't care if Lanny changes his mind. More power to him.

I simply find it hypocritical that someone would write what he did in 2001 as above, egging on the Bush agenda that actually came to pass and calling for even more, then come on the board a few years later and write this as he did last week:

And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me?

Anyway, he should be thankful for this thread. I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Cowperson

Hypocritical would be changing your mind over a matter of weeks, with no real reason, or harrassing someone for something you do yourself. I don't think it shows hypocracy to have a change of opinion over a 3 and a half year period with new information presented. [/b][/quote]
See, I don't get this "new information" excuse.

Invade Afghanistan, invade Iraq, impose democratic elections, "Don't just bomb these countries back to the stoneage and leave them in the dust, but go in and EDUCATE these people and HELP them build up their countries again."

He was saying a month ago that Muslims should be allowed to live as they wish, that we should stay within our own borders and not impose ourselves.

What new information? Is he going to blame this on Bush? He said in his e-mail Bush didn't have the balls to do what it takes.

Cowperson

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Nov 3 2004, 12:57 PM
I called your buddy Bingo out for hammering me on my view of the election and you're trying to defend his honor by producing a document from three years ago. Get a life.

You called me out?

Not very effectively. You basically chastised anyone that doesn't see the world in your way (a way that seems spin like a compass with the wind as we've found out today).

You pressed me for why I would vote for Bush. I gave you an answer. You ignored it.

Who needs help in an argument like that?

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Nov 3 2004, 07:17 PM
Wow! You really are one of the most arrogant pricks aren't you?

Coming from yourself, that has to be one of the most amazing statements of the year.

Cowperson

[nfotiu]

I don't buy that there was ever any convincing arguments out there that Iraq was somehow to blame for 9/11. Within days, Bin Laden was the primary suspect. And it has always been well known that Bin Laden and Saddam do not exactly see eye to eye.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Nov 3 2004, 01:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Nov 3 2004, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Hypocritical would be changing your mind over a matter of weeks, with no real reason, or harrassing someone for something you do yourself. I don't think it shows hypocracy to have a change of opinion over a 3 and a half year period with new information presented.

See, I don't get this "new information" excuse.

Invade Afghanistan, invade Iraq, impose democratic elections, "Don't just bomb these countries back to the stoneage and leave them in the dust, but go in and EDUCATE these people and HELP them build up their countries again."

He was saying a month ago that Muslims should be allowed to live as they wish, that we should stay within our own borders and not impose ourselves.

What new information? Is he going to blame this on Bush? He said in his e-mail Bush didn't have the balls to do what it takes.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
The new information being that Iraq, it's government or it's people, weren't responsible for the attacks mostly. He mentioned this.

Perhaps the first note was a little extreme, but most of his notes are. Perhaps the re-education of that part of the world was something he never truly wanted, he was just reacting from a stressful and painful event. Jeez.

[CaptainCrunch]

1. Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda must be brought to
justice. By justice I mean death, and in a fashion
that shows acknowledgement of the atrocities by the
Islamic faith. Justice by the blade in public view,
preferably in Mecca, Islam's most holy of places, and
by a Saudi executioner.

I'm all for that, America's mistake was two fold on this. They pulled troops out of Afganistan before they could close the circle on Bin Laden. They subcontracted out to the Patistan army. But in all due fairness, its almost as hard to find a unsophisticated terrorist hiding in a mountain pass as it is to find a needle in times square

2. Removal of Saddam Hussein. Do the job right this
time and get this idiot out of power. Preferably bomb
his ass until he's dead, but placing him in a cell
with a big horny black guy named Abraham would be
sufficient. Open the country up to democratic
elections.

they did this, and turned him over for trial, I have no problem with this. Its done and sometime soon somebody going to start sharpening the blade or buying a rope. it is funny that non of these crazies in Iraq are demanding his release. shows how far he's fallen

3. Clean out the Sudan. Get serious and hammer the
crap out these guys. Don't stop until every single
King Pin is dead or pleading to be Bill Clinton's love
slave.

Isn't this under UN consideration, wouldn't American's invading this be against the law? Why isn't the UN in there cleaning it out

4. The development of a Palestinian State. The
Americans are going to have to bite the bullet on this
one and side with the Arabs against the Jews. Not
really side with them, but play arbitrator that holds
the Isrealis in their seats, gun to head, while they
sign the accord granting homelands to the
Palestinians. They will then have to play peackeeper
for the forseeable future and make sure the Arabs and
Jews play nicely, and punish the offending party, even
if that offending party is eating a kosher happy meal.


I do agree with it, but the disposition of this is a lot more dificult then can be imagined. The American's going against Isreal would create a harder response from Isreal which would be bad for the Palestines. I think that the answer lies more in the Arab states brokering this deal and trying to moderate the Palestines so they can allow Isreal to worry less about thier security.


5. Redevelopment of the Islamic nations. Don't just
bomb these countries back to the stoneage and leave
them in the dust, but go in and EDUCATE these people
and HELP them build up their countries again.
Education is the greatest weapon there is. Why are
people the way they are in fundamentalist Islamic
countries? Because they were taught to think and act
the way they do. Education is key to continued peace.

This is a utopian solution that I don't think would ever happen. Do you think that the radical Islamics would ever allow Westernized education to flourish in thier own backyard? The last thing these people or the leaders of the Arab states would want is thier own subjects to have any kind of advanced education as they would start to question thier own religion, and thier own leadership. the only thing a forced education program would create is a lot of body bags filled with teachers and students.

6. Work in concert with the rest of the world to
clean up the rest of the terrorist theat. Each
country has its own internal threat and those groups
need to be dealt with as well. Make terrorist morally
unacceptable in ALL regions of the world.

This would be nice as well, but there is a political issue or dimension to this that has to be looked at. Its to the advantage of a lot of less progressive countries to have terrorists at thier beck and call. And also who would co-ordinate this massive effort. Not the Americans, because they don't trust the French or Germans. Not the British for the same reason above. Certainly not the Russians even though they would be my choice due to thier ruthlessness. The French, nah they would surrender Paris after a spirited 20 minute struggle. The Germans? not strong enough militarily and they might be tempted to call France a terrorist nation. So it comes down to the American's continuing to do what they're doing now.

7. Everyone smoke some of that hasheesh that
Afgahnistan is so famous for and have a real big
party. Once you party with someone its pretty hard to
want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Or you could get stoned and stab your buddy just to see him die. Two great armies met on the battlefield to negotiate a peaceful settlement. While the leaders were talking one soldier drew his sword to kill an asp. Both sides with a high level of mistrust fell upon each other in a horrific battle which ended when no man was left standing

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Nov 3 2004, 01:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Nov 3 2004, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 07:09 PM
I'm the only person who can turn him into a sympathetic figure.

Cowperson

Wow! You really are one of the most arrogant pricks aren't you? News flash! The sun does not rise and set on your forehead like you think it does, you're fecal matter does not smell like roses, and not everything YOU write or post is correct. Everyone is wrong from time to time and everyone has the right to change their mind as time passes.

Oh, and you are also very good at making yourself look like a pathetic person as well. You're looking very small Cow. Very small indeed. I'd recommend a handle change to "calf", but someone already is using it.

[/b][/quote]
I see we've reached the childish personal attacks portion of your program.

You can't imagine my surprise.

[CaptainCrunch]

Wow I'm not a moderator and even I'm thinking that this one needs to go without the personal attacks.

Yelling and swearing makes baby jesus cry

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Bingo@Nov 3 2004, 01:13 PM
I don't think Cow or anyone is saying a person can't change their mind ... that's pretty selective reading of this string to come to that conclusion.

If said person, however, attempts to belittle and bully, talk down to, and trash anyone that thinks differently than them, should be held accountable if they've completely abandoned their though process that was once even more right than the people he's berating.

That's weak.

True enough, but I think both posters are guilty of this to a certain extent, they just have different ways of doing it. Lanny is very frank in saying what he thinks and believes while Cow, illustrated by that whole 'He should thank me for this thread. I'm the only one who can turn him into a sympathetic figure' does his bullying in a very passive/aggressive way. I think they both do it.

Maybe the lesson should be, if you dish it out be prepared to take it?

[calculoso]

Originally posted by Daradon@Nov 3 2004, 12:25 PM
Lanny is very frank in saying what he thinks and believes

If he'd stop at this, there would be no problem.

Cow.. I know you have a running feud with Lanny, but c'mon. You're bigger than this.

[Pileon]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Nov 3 2004, 12:09 PM
I simply find it hypocritical that someone would write what he did in 2001 as above, egging on the Bush agenda that actually came to pass and calling for even more, then come on the board a few years later and write this as he did last week:

And who could blame a nation from wanting to park a nuke in the middle of an American city? How anyone can not agree that Bush and Co. are criminals and have committed attrocities against humanity is beyond me?

How does this:

2. Removal of Saddam Hussein. Do the job right this time and get this idiot out of power. Preferably bomb his ass until he's dead, but placing him in a cell with a big horny black guy named Abraham would be sufficient. Open the country up to democratic elections.

Relate to what you are saying above. I'm new here so can't vouch for any personal animosity between the two of you, but seriously, it doesn't look to me like that big a change in position. His position would appear to be to get rid of Saddam. It's open for debate how that is accomplished.

Bush is the one who fabricated the reasoning and then turned the US military loose to fight a guerilla war. In pursuing this action, he has alienated the US, killed tens of thousands of innocents, and fostered the terrorist feelings that the war was supposed to prevent.

Afghanistan was handled reasonably well. They built international support, aided their own people in overthrowing the regime, and have managed to plant the seeds of democracy. It's questionable if any of this can happen in Iraq.

The entire PNAC agenda isn't bad in its goal - the insidious part is in its tactics. Saying that you want "democracy" by "implementing" it on the population is a total oxymoron. Peace through war and financial independence by buying American are other examples.

As for the rest of Lanny's e-mail to you, the points are right on the money as for what the ideal could be for the middle east. The devil is in the details.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by Pileon@Nov 3 2004, 01:40 PM
Bush is the one who fabricated the reasoning and then turned the US military loose to fight a guerilla war. In pursuing this action, he has alienated the US, killed tens of thousands of innocents, and fostered the terrorist feelings that the war was supposed to prevent.

That just isn't factual.

It may be true, Lord knows I don't have the inside goods. But all official evidence has pointed to flawed intelligence, and no fabrication or lying of any kind.

Choose to believe that or not ... up to you, but don't state fabrication as a matter of fact because it just isn't.