The Fight Against Scientology

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Cheese's faith is in the potential good in mankind. That hasn't been demonstrable in the known history of mankind. If he believes that all religions are an invention of mankind then he can't very well point to theism as the cause of the world's sorrow. What is in man himself is the cause of the sorrow we inflict upon one another.

The bible I trust in calls that sin. Cheese doesn't believe in sin(missing the mark) but, rather the potential goodness of mankind. In my mind history supports my position.

well well well...CalgaryBornAgain chimes in with his usual flatulence.
What took you so long?
You obviously cant understand what is written because as I and others have mentioned on NUMEROUS occasions...
Theism leads to violence...or sorrow if you want it to be. You can look no further than the countless thousands of radical Muslims of today following their leaders blindly into war. So yes...IF man invented religion...to control the masses...then yes that very same religion can be used against the people. Id educate you on little known atrocities like the INQUISITION for example...but it might hurt your mind.

A pig caused hundreds of Indians to kill one another in 1980. The animal walked through a Muslim holy ground at Moradabad, near New Delhi. Muslims, who think pigs are an embodiment of Satan, blamed Hindus for the defilement. They went on a murder rampage, stabbing and clubbing Hindus, who retaliated in kind. The pig riot spread to a dozen cities and left more than 200 dead.

The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land.

Human sacrifice blossomed in the Mayan theocracy of Central America between the 11th and 16th centuries. To appease a feathered-serpent god, maidens were drowned in sacred wells and other victims either had their hearts cut out, were shot with arrows, or were beheaded.

In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives -- many of them women and children -- taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified."

The Assassins were a sect of Ismaili Shi'ite Muslims whose faith required the stealthy murder of religious opponents. From the 11th to 13th centuries, they killed numerous leaders in modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria. They finally were wiped out by conquering Mongols -- but their vile name survives.

In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: "Kill them all. God will know his own." Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered -- many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice.

Islamic jihads (holy wars), mandated by the Koran, killed millions over 12 centuries. In early years, Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India and west to Morocco. Then splintering sects branded other Muslims as infidels and declared jihads against them.

In the 1950s and 1960s, combat between Christians, animists and Muslims in Sudan killed more than 500,000.



This is just a drop in the bucket BornAgain....

[evman150]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What does free-thinking have to do with this? You aren't a free-thinker. You believe what you believe and you refuse to entertain any other explanation. You go so far as to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. You call them the dregs of society for crying out loud. You've made up your mind. You aren't thinking (free or not) about anything.

One of us? Sheesh. Talk about delusional.

Free thinking and open mindedness are not the same thing.

I am a free thinker. I am free of the oppressive shackles that religion places on thought.

I think what I want to think, and not what someone else tells me to think. That is free thinking.

[Cheese]

A lovely little youtube video on "What is an Atheist"

Video

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Theism leads to violence...or sorrow if you want it to be. You can look no further than the countless thousands of radical Muslims of today following their leaders blindly into war. So yes...IF man invented religion...to control the masses...then yes that very same religion can be used against the people. Id educate you on little known atrocities like the INQUISITION for example...but it might hurt your mind.

If man creates religion to control the population (which is a theory I agree with), then it is man who is causing this evil and war, not theism. You are blaming the puppet for the puppetmaster's actions.

Also, your argument that theism causes violence is massively unreliable, as the majority of violent crimes committed has little or nothing to do with religion.

Violence is the result of man's lust for power and control. Organized religion has often been used as a means to achieve this.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Of for christs sake...are you suggesting that only communist states could be Atheist? Are Christiians still hanging onto that thin thread? Talk about fear mongering! Even in the darkest hours of the Soviet Empire the Russian Orthodox church played a significant role in HELPING Stalin stay in power.
My response was suggesting...hey weve tried religion for a few thousand years...lets try the alternate for a century and see what happens...LOL.
Hauling out the old Communist manifesto is simply garbage. There is nothing greater at stopping freedom of thought than theism...theism that teaches one to believe strongly in lies, deitys, Gods, Supreme beings and books written by man WITHOUT the ability to question. How divergent is that?
Where is it written that in order to be free man MUST have religion?

In case you forget, I was brought up as and atheist and I'm not a christian. Communism was just an example of how to bring your dream to reality and how any plan like yours would bring us to freedomless state. Come up with something practicle or I'll just put your pipedreams on a par with religion.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well well well...CalgaryBornAgain chimes in with his usual flatulence.
What took you so long?
You obviously cant understand what is written because as I and others have mentioned on NUMEROUS occasions is....
Theism leads to violence...or sorrow if you want it to be. You can look no further than the countless thousands of radical Muslims of today following their leaders blindly into war. So yes...IF man invented religion...to control the masses...then yes that very same religion can be used against the people. Id educate you on little know atrocities like the INQUISITION for example...but it might hurt your mind.

Professor Rudolph J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii outlines that barbarism in his book "Death by Government," a comprehensive detailing of the roughly 170 million people murdered by their own governments during the 20th century. From 1917 to its collapse in 1991, the Soviet Union murdered about 62 million of its own people. During Mao Tse-tung's reign, 35,236,000, possibly more, Chinese citizens were murdered. By comparison, Hitler's Nazis managed to murder 21 million of its citizens and citizens in nations they conquered. Adding these numbers to the 60 million lives lost in war makes the 20th century mankind's most brutal era. These murders were not religious based. In fact the worst offenders were devout atheists. The problem isn't religion but, the human condition.

Speaking as a Baptist our history is traced through ana-baptist groups rather than the Roman Catholic organization. Our history is non-violent. You tend to lump all sects of Christianity together and even all theistic religions. Yet you don't have the courage to face the shameful tract record of the atheistic governments within their short existence..

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

If man creates religion to control the population (which is a theory I agree with), then it is man who is causing this evil and war, not theism. You are blaming the puppet for the puppetmaster's actions.

Also, your argument that theism causes violence is massively unreliable, as the majority of violent crimes committed has little or nothing to do with religion.

Violence is the result of man's lust for power and control. Organized religion has often been used as a means to achieve this.

Sheesh...well Im glad we are finally agreeing on something...go back and read my posts...I have never suggested that man cant be bad...I have suggested that I believe man is inherantly good...there are triggers in life that may lead a man one way or the other. A baby is not born evil...he is given life circumstances to make him that way.
So now when you add religion to the mix...as I posted above...yes I firmly believe that it is indeed a cause of great sorrow in this world. Lets try a century without the corruption of organized religion. Be spiritual if you like...hell dance to the sun or the moon...but lets quit fooling ourselves about false prophets.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Professor Rudolph J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii outlines that barbarism in his book "Death by Government," a comprehensive detailing of the roughly 170 million people murdered by their own governments during the 20th century. From 1917 to its collapse in 1991, the Soviet Union murdered about 62 million of its own people. During Mao Tse-tung's reign, 35,236,000, possibly more, Chinese citizens were murdered. By comparison, Hitler's Nazis managed to murder 21 million of its citizens and citizens in nations they conquered. Adding these numbers to the 60 million lives lost in war makes the 20th century mankind's most brutal era. These murders were not religious based. In fact the worst offenders were devout atheists. The problem isn't religion but, the human condition.

Speaking as a Baptist our history is traced through ana-baptist groups rather than the Roman Catholic organization. Our history is non-violent. You tend to lump all sects of Christianity together and even all theistic religions. Yet you don't have the courage to face the shameful tract record of the atheistic governments within their short existence..

I have had this identical conversation with you on at least 10 different occasions...fear mongering by TaliBaptists about Communism = Atheism is bunk.

Atheism has nothing to do with political beliefs. Atheism is part of the Communist and Socialist doctrines, but atheists are not necessarily Communists or Socialists. Many point to the actions of Communist Russia, China and North Korea as examples of what atheists in political power would do. Communism uses an enforced stance of atheism to squash religious decent and instill it's own supreme dictatorship. Most atheists would not replace God with an all powerful government, that would be hypocritical. There is a strong belief in the values of freedom brought by a secular government.

Oh and I squashed your Hitler theory months ago too...perhaps you really cant read anything besides the theistic drivel you keep posting...


Hitler...what was he?
My conclusion is that Hitler, although he was brought up and confirmed as a Catholic, had abandoned Christianity by the time he was in control of Germany. Importantly though, he was not an atheist either. Read on to find out more…

Hitler was a Catholic

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Sheesh...well Im glad we are finally agreeing on something...go back and read my posts...I have never suggested that man cant be bad...I have suggested that I believe man is inherantly good...there are triggers in life that may lead a man one way or the other. A baby is not born evil...he is given life circumstances to make him that way.
So now when you add religion to the mix...as I posted above...yes I firmly believe that it is indeed a cause of great sorrow in this world. Lets try a century without the corruption of organized religion. Be spiritual if you like...hell dance to the sun or the moon...but lets quit fooling ourselves about false prophets.

Good and evil are a man made belief. Certantly we hope that children are taught to be good, and organized religion has been there to teach people what is "right" and what is "wrong". You blame it for all of lifes evils while ignoring that it has also historically been an outlet to express the good things in life.

Where religion fails is where mankind fails - his lust for power, for money, for control. As a man made creation, religion is prone to the same inherent flaws as exists in man. You cannot separate the two, especially when, as I mentioned, violence and evil are very much a secular problem.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Where religion fails is where mankind fails - his lust for power, for money, for control. As a man made creation, religion is prone to the same inherent flaws as exists in man. You cannot separate the two, especially when, as I mentioned, violence and evil are very much a secular problem.

That is exactly it.

Might as well try to rid the world of poiltics, because while a lot of wars are based in religion (to either promote it or destroy it), ALL wars are political in nature.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Good and evil are a man made belief. Certantly we hope that children are taught to be good, and organized religion has been there to teach people what is "right" and what is "wrong". You blame it for all of lifes evils while ignoring that it has also historically been an outlet to express the good things in life.

Where religion fails is where mankind fails - his lust for power, for money, for control. As a man made creation, religion is prone to the same inherent flaws as exists in man. You cannot separate the two, especially when, as I mentioned, violence and evil are very much a secular problem.

If you teach a child a lie...IF you teach a child that if he prays for something to a God that is nothing more than a figment of relaity...how is this teaching positive beliefs? If you teach a child that a man took 2 of every animal and put them on a boat while an all loving goD destroyed everything he created, this teaches the child what? Can man not teach values without a theistic canon attached? Lust for power and control has always been the churches failure.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I have had this identical conversation with you on at least 10 different occasions...fear mongering by TaliBaptists about Communism = Atheism is bunk.

Atheism has nothing to do with political beliefs. Atheism is part of the Communist and Socialist doctrines, but atheists are not necessarily Communists or Socialists. Many point to the actions of Communist Russia, China and North Korea as examples of what atheists in political power would do. Communism uses an enforced stance of atheism to squash religious decent and instill it's own supreme dictatorship. Most atheists would not replace God with an all powerful government, that would be hypocritical. There is a strong belief in the values of freedom brought by a secular government.

The point you are missing is that you are wrong to conclude that religion is the problem. It is mankind that is the problem. Eliminate religion and you still have the same problem. Communism would be a beneficial system if mankind was basically good. It isn't because mankind isn't. A priest or pope, a philosopher or a politican: it doesn't matter. There is none that is good. The bible tells us that and history demonstrates that truth.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

If you teach a child a lie...IF you teach a child that if he prays for something to a God that is nothing more than a figment of relaity...

What the hell is a "figment of reality"?

Prove to me God does not exist.

how is this teaching positive beliefs? If you teach a child that a man took 2 of every animal and put them on a boat while an all loving goD destroyed everything he created, this teaches the child what? Can man not teach values without a theistic canon attached?

Sure he can. That does not make religious based teachings any less valid an outlet. The lesson is what is important, not the delivery.

And fwiw, the story of Noah's Ark was created at a time when people believed in a more vengeful God, as opposed to all loving. It is a metaphor, you know that right?

Lust for power and control has always been the churches failure.

Who controls the church?

Did Alexander the Great lust for power and control because of his religion? Caesar? Napoleon? Hitler?

What about the man who dominates and beats his wife? What about the woman who will tell any lie to screw her husband in a divorce? What about the junkie who kills another junkie in a drug deal gone bad?

Its all about power, its all about control. It is all about the need for both. And it has nothing to do with religion.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Good and evil are a man made belief.

Yep, even says so in the bible. "and they partook of the fruit of the of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Of course religion is good at ignoring it's simple truths and twisting everything for their own gain. Doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[skins]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The point you are missing is that you are wrong to conclude that religion is the problem. It is mankind that is the problem. Eliminate religion and you still have the same problem. Communism would be a beneficial system if mankind was basically good. It isn't because mankind isn't. A priest or pope, a philosopher or a politican: it doesn't matter. There is none that is good. The bible tells us that and history demonstrates that truth.

that's a good argument for your case CalgaryBorn.

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Prove to me God does not exist.

that's one statement that die hard athiests cannot escape. of course the same is true for theists. they hear, "prove God exists, then I'll believe."

really, all you can do is examine both arguments and make a faith based decision, or become an agnostic.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

Free thinking and open mindedness are not the same thing.

That sounds like an admission of a closed mind. Is that a sign of intelligence?

Originally Posted by evman150

I am a free thinker. I am free of the oppressive shackles that religion places on thought.

So am I. I guess my invitation to the "intellectual bourgeoisie society" meeting got lost in the mail.

Did anyone else get one?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by skins

really, all you can do is examine both arguments and make a faith based decision, or become an agnostic.

From my perspective, you either know or don't know.

Lots of people, like cheese and others, pretend to know but their thinking breaks down when it comes to offering anything practical.

[V]

Originally Posted by Cheese

How about we allow the earth a good century of no religious involvement to see what would really happen? Every single religious group on earth would fight to the death to stop that from happening. They would die a slow and painful death.

Originally Posted by Snakeye

This is human nature. While you take a great deal of joy in painting religion as evil, you fail to realize that if there is no god, then that evil is coming from man himself. Your arguments in this thread are contradictory. I am not sure how you can argue that many religious people can do so many bad things while arguing that man is inherently good. If God is not making him bad, then man himself is.

I still want to see Cheese answer this one. It's an interesting point and deserves an answer, I think. If an atheist believes there is no God, then religion came from man. And all the evil that's come from religion has come from man. So how will ridding the world of religion help anything? It's only a product of man's evil, if religion isn't there something else will take it's place.

[CaptainCrunch]

But wait Communism in its most inherent form is a religion that replaces a god figure with a state, but for communism to work you have to blindly follow the tenants that the state and the heads of the party put into place.

At the same time, the "High priests" of communism or the idealogues that drive the party and the states become just as consumned with power as any bishop or mullah.

[Calgaryborn]

Cheese I missed your edit where you talked about Hitler. You said:

My conclusion is that Hitler, although he was brought up and confirmed as a Catholic, had abandoned Christianity by the time he was in control of Germany. Importantly though, he was not an atheist either. Read on to find out more…

Hitler didn't die a Catholic at the very least. Suicide is a big no no for a catholic. It is considered the unforgivable sin. He used catholic bias against the Jews to help his cause. Again his notion of the Germans being the superior race was an affirmation of his belief in Darwinistic evolution which at the time was considered at odds with all of Christianity. Hitler had read Darwin's book "the Origin of Species and Race" and obviously was greatly influenced by it.