CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Alpine Fisher]

Originally Posted by kevman

Supply and Demand. The Flames still sell out most games.

And you do know that a new stadium will mean higher ticket and beer prices right?

It's time to stop public financing of private stadiums. If Calgary has to be the first to buck the trend and as a result the Flames have the oldest stadium in the league then so be it.

I don't know how they can charge anymore for beer than they do know. But I am sure they will find a way.
What does a beer cost now? $7.50?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Alpine Fisher

I don't know how they can charge anymore for beer than they do know. But I am sure they will find a way.
What does a beer cost now? $7.50?

$9 and it's among the cheapest in the League.

[kevman]

Our neighbours now get to pay $11.

http://www.sonic1029.com/2016/09/15/...e-beer-prices/

[Alpine Fisher]

Originally Posted by getbak

$9 and it's among the cheapest in the League.

That is ridiculous.
$9 for a beer.
I have season's tickets & will avoid buying beer at all costs.
If I remember correctly it was $7 or $7.50 last year. Thats a ridiculous increase.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Alpine Fisher

That is ridiculous.
$9 for a beer.
I have season's tickets & will avoid buying beer at all costs.
If I remember correctly it was $7 or $7.50 last year. Thats a ridiculous increase.

$8.75 last year. It goes up 25 cents a year virtually every season. I think the 2012-13 lockout year was the only year in recent memory where it didn't go up.

[Thunderball]

I think the bigger question is the mechanical and structural issues with McMahon (and the Saddledome). If it turns out one or both need significant repairs to foundation, ice plant, sound system, wiring, etc., could be looking at $100m + there alone to fix aging buildings. Add in the need for a fieldhouse (at $200m minimum) and that gets you pretty close to the city pay portion for the actual facilities portion of the CalgaryNEXT project, or a $500m arena and a $400m stadium/fieldhouse project in separate locations.

Infrastructure and remediation in West Village are inevitable since the city bought into that land, and that's going to be a massive expenditure in the next 5-20 years regardless. That's something taxpayers should really be up in arms about. Why did the city buy tainted land, and why have they done so little about the pollution.

[kevman]

As for ticket prices, before fees Wednesday's Flames game at Roger's Place starts at $77. Friday's rematch at the Dome is $69 and up. Saturday at the Dome against the Blues is $52 and up. Saturday at Roger's Place against the Ducks will run you at least $68.

I'm personally not into that kind of price increase just so we can keep up with the Joneses. Let Edmonton have this one - the city is still a dump.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I think the bigger question is the mechanical and structural issues with McMahon (and the Saddledome). If it turns out one or both need significant repairs to foundation, ice plant, sound system, wiring, etc., could be looking at $100m + there alone to fix aging buildings. Add in the need for a fieldhouse (at $200m minimum) and that gets you pretty close to the city pay portion for the actual facilities portion of the CalgaryNEXT project, or a $500m arena and a $400m stadium/fieldhouse project in separate locations.

Infrastructure and remediation in West Village are inevitable since the city bought into that land, and that's going to be a massive expenditure in the next 5-20 years regardless. That's something taxpayers should really be up in arms about. Why did the city buy tainted land, and why have they done so little about the pollution.

I thought a lot of that stuff got fixed with flood insurance money.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Infrastructure and remediation in West Village are inevitable since the city bought into that land, and that's going to be a massive expenditure in the next 5-20 years regardless. That's something taxpayers should really be up in arms about. Why did the city buy tainted land, and why have they done so little about the pollution.

No - it makes sense for the city (and taxpayers) if the WV is remediated and developed into something that generates property taxes to offset the cost. CalgaryNext proposes that the majority of prime land is an expenditure rather than an investment.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I thought a lot of that stuff got fixed with flood insurance money.

I think some of it did, you're right, but I wasn't sure how much of it was a bandaid or a long term fix. I was speaking of McMahon's long term needs as well. Between the two, I'm sure the cost to be long term viable is staggering.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

No - it makes sense for the city (and taxpayers) if the WV is remediated and developed into something that generates property taxes to offset the cost. CalgaryNext proposes that the majority of prime land is an expenditure rather than an investment.

Of course, any meaningful development of West Village is going to require the construction of sweeteners so people will want to develop there.

Using East Village as an example, that's a $225m + library and a $200m National Music Centre after $350-400m in infrastructure upgrades.

In any event and without drawing into a debate on the merits on those two facilities, and their price tags, there's going to be infrastructure of some sort, libraries or otherwise that takes up a good chunk of land that won't be attracting tax.

The downside is that infrastructure will also attract less tax revenue (federal, provincial or municipal) than a sports facility that will have tourism levys, GST, and other taxes tacked on to every ticket, hot dog, parking spot and beer. The upside is a public building with zero (or next to zero) income potential and long term operating costs exclusive to the city won't attract the same political opposition as professional sports.

I'm not the biggest fan of CalgaryNext, especially its poor presentation re: costs, though I do applaud its ambitious nature, but regardless of your opinion of public money going towards stadia and arenas, West Village is going to be a massive money sink for Calgary taxpayers, arena or no arena that may or may not ever recoup enough property tax to be worthwhile.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Of course, any meaningful development of West Village is going to require the construction of sweeteners so people will want to develop there.

No sweeteners required - just removal of pollutants. Proximity to downtown/river = instant desirability.

The same was true for EV. Sadly, social problems aren't as easy to deal with.

The question to consider is speed of development, and what happens with not yet developed land until its time comes (depending on how disrupted it is by clean up).

Does anyone have a good link to the specific areas that will be dug up for cleanup?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's said to be among the worst in the league. It's certainly one of the oldest (and MSG just had a renovation more expensive than anything Calgary is thinking of spending on a new arena and stadium).

ETA: as soon as Detroits is finished, Calgary will be older than all but MSG, and by at least 10 years.

Or another way to look at- Calgary was the first NHL city to get a new modern arena. Then everybody else built or renovated their arenas. So by being first, 35 years later we are also the oldest. We also had the distinction of having the newest arena for about 10 years. (I'm thinking San Jose is the next oldest at 1994.)

In 1983 we needed a new arena mostly for size. The Corral only seats about 10K. I'd also be curious how old everybody else's arenas were in 1983, and again when they rebuilt theirs. For example, Maple Leaf Gardens was 68 years old when it was replaced. That may be towards the old side, but I'm thinking most are in the 50+ years old.

A lot of people in this thread who badly want a new arena don't appear to be season ticket holders. I know myself looking at what happened in Edmonton with ticket prices; especially towards the low end. My green seats went up around 40%, or I can go to the cheapest section for a 20% increase. If they are available; assuming all the people in the 300s aren't re-assigned there.

The reason this is a bit of an issue, is that with the Saddledome being at least 80% STH, if you price those people out of the market, do you run the risk of the building not being sold out? And with all of these STHs, some of the issues described go away. For example the bathroom line, I have never waited more than a minute for a bathroom between periods. The reason is the most obvious washrooms are also the smallest. I typically watch the intermission show, hit the washroom and grab a beer. That gets me back to my seat with at least 2 minutes to puck drop.

Having been to a handful of other arenas, I know ours isn't as good as any of those other ones. But for me they aren't $600-800 per year better for me. (And that's the increase of one seat, not the pair.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Or another way to look at- Calgary was the first NHL city to get a new modern arena. Then everybody else built or renovated their arenas. So by being first, 35 years later we are also the oldest.

Also, we made all the design mistakes that every subsequent arena builder learned to avoid. It's not about the age of the building. It's the fact that the entire design is fundamentally flawed. Nobody in 1983 understood that it would be necessary to have a load-bearing roof, or a practice facility, or several hundred thousand square feet of interior space outside of the seating bowl. And nobody involved in the project understood how foolish it was to have the seating bowl supported by poured concrete structural members that broke up the rest of the interior space into small chunks.

The billion-dollar renovation to MSG was possible because the exterior structure of MSG is basically a hollow cylinder, separate from any interior load-bearing members. They could gut the interior and start over. Unless I am drastically mistaken, that can't be done with the Saddledome design. Nor can any additional interior space be added. The volume under that parabolic hyperboloid roof is too small, and cannot be increased without demolishing the whole existing structure.

Twenty-one of the current NHL arenas were opened in a period from 1993 to 2001. Every one of those arenas was designed by people who had learned from the mistakes we made. Forget that the Saddledome is only 33 years old by the calendar. It has been functionally outdated for over twenty years, and that puts its tenants at a competitive disadvantage compared to the tenants of any other NHL arena, except the Joe Louis, which the Red Wings will be leaving next year.

(Please pardon me for sticking my nose in again. I wanted there to be one post where these things are all laid out in an orderly way.)

[getbak]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Or another way to look at- Calgary was the first NHL city to get a new modern arena. Then everybody else built or renovated their arenas. So by being first, 35 years later we are also the oldest. We also had the distinction of having the newest arena for about 10 years. (I'm thinking San Jose is the next oldest at 1994.)

The Flames had the newest arena in the NHL for 10 years. The SAP Center and the Honda Center both opened in 1993. That was also the year the Panthers joined the NHL and their first arena had opened in 1988. Overnight, the Flames went from playing in the newest arena in the NHL to the fourth-newest.


These were the arenas in the NHL when the Saddledome opened:

• Montreal Forum - 1924
• Boston Garden - 1928
• Chicago Stadium - 1929
• St Louis Arena - 1929
• Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens - 1931
• Buffalo Memorial Auditorium - 1940
• Quebec Colisee - 1950
• Winnipeg Arena - 1955
• Pittsburgh Civic Arena - 1961
• LA Fabulous Forum - 1967
• Minnesota Met Center - 1967
• Philidelphia Spectrum - 1967
• Vancouver Pacific Coliseum - 1967
• New York Madison Square Garden - 1968
• New York Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum - 1972
• Washington Capital Centre - 1973
• Edmonton Northlands Coliseum - 1974
• Hartford Civic Center - 1975
• Detroit Joe Louis Arena - 1979
• New Jersey Brendan Byrne Arena - 1981
• Calgary Olympic Saddledome - 1983

At the time, 7 of the 21 arenas in the NHL were older than the Saddledome is today. 6 of those were at least a decade older than the Dome is currently. Chicago and St Louis were the first to replace their old arenas, with their current building opening in 1994.



One thing that annoys me about when the Flames talk about the relative ages of the various buildings in the NHL and CFL is that they take into account the renovations that have been done to the other teams' buildings, but show the Saddledome and McMahon's original construction dates.




The Saddledome was significantly renovated in 1995, so it should be in-line with Vancouver and Boston. McMahon should be at least in the late-80s, if not the 90s for when it was brought into its current state. Both are older than their peers, but not as much older as they like to pretend.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by getbak

The Saddledome was significantly renovated in 1995, so it should be in-line with Vancouver and Boston.

But it isn't, because the structural problems with the original design could not be corrected. (See above.)

Putting lipstick on a pig does not make it into Gisele Bundchen, even if Ms. Bundchen and the pig put their makeup on at the same time.

[sureLoss]

Speaking of MSG. It is almost criminal what they demolished to build it:
http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...s-2011-12?op=1

Sorry for the derailment

[BurningSteel]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Speaking of MSG. It is almost criminal what they demolished to build it:
http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...s-2011-12?op=1

Sorry for the derailment

I see what you did there.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by getbak

One thing that annoys me about when the Flames talk about the relative ages of the various buildings in the NHL and CFL is that they take into account the renovations that have been done to the other teams' buildings, but show the Saddledome and McMahon's original construction dates.

Great point. Kind of similar to the way they want to promote the [debatable] benefits of the whole project for the whole city, yet think it's unfair to consider the whole cost of the project.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by getbak

$8.75 last year. It goes up 25 cents a year virtually every season. I think the 2012-13 lockout year was the only year in recent memory where it didn't go up.

It was $12/beer here in Montreal as of 2014 (didn't go to a game last year).
For some reason, despite being charged $12 for cold horse piss, I find it even more insulting due to the fact that the team is owned by Molson and the city is home to their HQ (where is the home town discount?).

I now only order water there and constantly reminisce about heroin beer (no one believes me)