CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Flamenspiel]

^^Yeah the new is better story line is not so accurate, even if everything else is improved, seats do tend to get narrower in new arenas/stadiums, with the exception of the club seats. Its kind of like airlines.

The exception to me was the football stadiums in England, they did tend to allow more space because of the safety requirements that were introduced. I remember having to sit/stand sideways to fit into the old Wembly.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Studies have shown that the benefits you list are negligible; but there is something to be said about the "feeling" of having a team. I would argue these two "benefits" are worth very little to a city.

So, yes, I agree with you on the point (I'm sure most would); but would most likely disagree on the dollar figure (like most would)

Does anyone know what the average Flames game pulls down locally as far as ratings go?

If 100K people are watching pretty regularly, with 20,000 at the venue 41 nights a week, that's basically 10% of the city's population that spends anywhere from 1-3 hours consuming the entertainment product 82 nights a year + playoffs + preseason.

Is there something else non-essential that 10% of Calgary uses at the same time for a full 22% of the year?

I'm not suggesting that Calgary withers up and blows away without the Flames, but sans NHL hockey this city is way closer to Regina than Houston in terms of a public profile. Pro sports teams are just something cities of this scale have.

So let's build an arena. Let's not build a stupid combo facility that doesn't exist anywhere else with dubious value on prime real estate that won't be shovel ready until the next decade.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Be careful what you wish for.

I have seasons tickets in Edmonton and have attended one preseason game in the new arena so far.

What I have found is that for me, an upper bowl ticket holder, the experience is about the same.

The upper concourse is narrow and congested, long lines for beer and bathrooms still, no cup holders, the seats are still very narrow and you aren't going to have much shoulder room if you go to a game with the guys, my comparable seats price wise in the new building are further away from the ice and $800 more per seat, the escalators only run upwards during the game effectively isolating you from the lower concourse, the urinals are rounded so you don't have anywhere to put you beer in the washroom, you can use interact with the drink vendors now which I feel slows things down considerably, the food and drinks are more expensive.

The upper bowl seats are more comfortable, and everything is shiny. That's about the extent of the improvements in the viewing experience in the upper bowl. It was only one game and perhaps things like line lengths and levels of congestion will get better once everyone learns the new building, but its not good to begin with.

Of course if you have $10,000 plus to spend on season tickets every season, then your experience at Rogers will be considerably better than Rexall place. People sitting in Loge for instance looked to have zero wait times for drinks or washrooms, and they could ballroom dance in their concourse during intermission without bumping into anyone.

So for everyone in Calgary pining for a new arena, just go in with eyes wide open. It's probably not going to improve the viewing experience much for the "average joe", and you are going to pay a lot more for the privilege.

Food for thought.

Oil Stain, it takes a hell of a man to come in here and give that honest take instead of showing off your new arena and making fun of us in the spirit of the BOA.

[Kavvy]

edit nm

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Does anyone know what the average Flames game pulls down locally as far as ratings go?

If 100K people are watching pretty regularly, with 20,000 at the venue 41 nights a week, that's basically 10% of the city's population that spends anywhere from 1-3 hours consuming the entertainment product 82 nights a year + playoffs + preseason.

Is there something else non-essential that 10% of Calgary uses at the same time for a full 22% of the year?

I'm not suggesting that Calgary withers up and blows away without the Flames, but sans NHL hockey this city is way closer to Regina than Houston in terms of a public profile. Pro sports teams are just something cities of this scale have.

So let's build an arena. Let's not build a stupid combo facility that doesn't exist anywhere else with dubious value on prime real estate that won't be shovel ready until the next decade.

Lets not forget that the Flames have a massive benefit from 10% us consuming their product for 22% of the year. Ticket revenue, merchandise, TV packagares, advertising, corporate sponsors, etc.

The City gets what exactly? the ability to be like Houston (YAY!)

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

... the urinals are rounded so you don't have anywhere to put you beer in the washroom

Of all the things in your post this would bother me the most

[Tinordi]

@oilstain Yeah but you can't put a price on having nice and dry hands after going for a whaz.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Be careful what you wish for.

I have seasons tickets in Edmonton and have attended one preseason game in the new arena so far.

What I have found is that for me, an upper bowl ticket holder, the experience is about the same.

The upper concourse is narrow and congested, long lines for beer and bathrooms still, no cup holders, the seats are still very narrow and you aren't going to have much shoulder room if you go to a game with the guys, my comparable seats price wise in the new building are further away from the ice and $800 more per seat, the escalators only run upwards during the game effectively isolating you from the lower concourse, the urinals are rounded so you don't have anywhere to put you beer in the washroom, you can use interact with the drink vendors now which I feel slows things down considerably, the food and drinks are more expensive.

The upper bowl seats are more comfortable, and everything is shiny. That's about the extent of the improvements in the viewing experience in the upper bowl. It was only one game and perhaps things like line lengths and levels of congestion will get better once everyone learns the new building, but its not good to begin with.

Of course if you have $10,000 plus to spend on season tickets every season, then your experience at Rogers will be considerably better than Rexall place. People sitting in Loge for instance looked to have zero wait times for drinks or washrooms, and they could ballroom dance in their concourse during intermission without bumping into anyone.

So for everyone in Calgary pining for a new arena, just go in with eyes wide open. It's probably not going to improve the viewing experience much for the "average joe", and you are going to pay a lot more for the privilege.

Food for thought.

The worst part is you still have to watch the Oilers.

[GGG]

So going through the that report in detail.

The Flames ownership will contribute 450 million
The city has to contribute about 900 million.

The city will get 435 million from a CRL and 310 million from the sale of land leaving about 150 million to be financed and still want to spend another 200 million in infrastructure on the west village.

They get a field house, stadium, and arena.

Or

Remediate the land for 50 million
Spend 200 million on a field house
Spend 300 million on infastructure (Total Value not reduced amount)

Gain 460 million from selling the land (15 more acres of land)
Gain 435 from the CRL or more now that you have more land.

This leaves you with 200 million dollars in actual created value. (150 million is interest. So you are Half a billion dollars ahead if you don't build the stadium/Arena.

So is an Arena and Stadium worth half a billion. I think we get the Arena for 100 million in infastructure around Stampede.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

This should not be a one-sided argument. Cities DO benefit from pro-sports and event entertainment facilities economically and socially. High quality entertainment districts revitalize dormant lands, generate new taxes and bring new developments into the neighbourhood. So, should cities be co-investing in these ventures? Absolutely. The difficult question always is how much.

This may/may not come as a surprise, but this topic has been discussed a bit in the previous 2600 posts. The only thing we can all agree on is that there is widespread disagreement on the validity of your argument.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The Flames leaving Calgary would be so bad for the league it would impact league wide revenues. I dare say it is now essentially impossible for the Flames to change cities without being sold at a major profit to non-local interests.

The league knows this just as much as the team does.

Everything else you said about Seattle is spot on. This last part is even more important - the league will posture on behalf of the team all they want, but they would never, ever, ever, EVER let the Flames move ahead of bottom 10 revenue franchises.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Everything else you said about Seattle is spot on. This last part is even more important - the league will posture on behalf of the team all they want, but they would never, ever, ever, EVER let the Flames move ahead of bottom 10 revenue franchises.

I don't know, they might. They NEED Cities to pay for arena's to stay viable in some American markets, if they don't get what they wan't, and Calgary turns into an example of the City pushing back, it might cause a ripple to other markets.

I agree it is unlikely, as you would need both local owners to move and the NHL to agree, and it would take years - just that "never" may happen.

[craigwd]

Coldplay - Edmonton show next year then straight to Vancouver. No Calgary.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Coldplay - Edmonton show next year then straight to Vancouver. No Calgary.

Is... is this supposed to be a reason to build a new arena?

I'd think we should be writing letters to Nenshi, thanking him for helping Calgary avoid Coldplay.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Coldplay - Edmonton show next year then straight to Vancouver. No Calgary.

That is complete BS. New arena or not, many of the top acts are only going to come to one of Calgary/Edmonton. A new building is not going to change that at all....Coldplay was here a year or two ago and I'm pretty sure they skipped Edmonton that time.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

Is... is this supposed to be a reason to build a new arena?

I'd think we should be writing letters to Nenshi, thanking him for helping Calgary avoid Coldplay.

I know this is a joke, but the point still stands. Calgarians better get used to going up to Edmonton to watch good acts as many will probably bypass Calgary.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

That is complete BS. New arena or not, many of the top acts are only going to come to one of Calgary/Edmonton. A new building is not going to change that at all....Coldplay was here a year or two ago and I'm pretty sure they skipped Edmonton that time.

Nope. They've played both cities on the past two tours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylo_Xyloto_Tour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viva_la_Vida_Tour

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Nope. They've played both cities on the past two tours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylo_Xyloto_Tour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viva_la_Vida_Tour

You've just proven the point they don't skip here because of the Dome, they clearly will play here. They just skipped this time, as bands will do sometimes. Pearl Jam skipped Edmonton last time and came here, it happens. So this is much ado about nothing.

[Cappy]

These are Coldplay's tour dates/destinations:

New York, MetLife Stadium (August 1)
Boston, Gillette Stadium (August 4)
Washington DC, FedExField (August 6)
Montreal, Bell Centre (August 8)
Minneapolis, US Bank Stadium (August 12)
Omaha, CenturyLink Center (August 14)
Kansas City, Sprint Center (August 15)
Chicago, Soldier Field (August 17)
Cleveland, Quicken Loans Arena (August 19)
Toronto, Rogers Centre (August 21)
Houston, NRG Stadium (August 25)
Miami, Hard Rock Stadium (August 28)
Seattle, CenturyLink Field (September 23)
Edmonton, Rogers Place (September 26)
Vancouver, BC Place (September 29)
Portland, Moda Center (October 2)
San Francisco, Levi’s Stadium (October 4)
San Diego, Qualcomm Stadium (October 8)

Other notable snubs are Los Angeles (LA Live!), Pittsburgh (Consol! I mean PPG!), Philadelphi, Columbus, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, etc.

All larger than Calgary with newer facilities.

A lot more goes into booking concert venues than how new/nice the venue is...

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I know this is a joke, but the point still stands. Calgarians better get used to going up to Edmonton to watch good acts as many will probably bypass Calgary.

Err... no the point does not still stand, see below:

Originally Posted by Cappy

These are Coldplay's tour dates/destinations:



Other notable snubs are Los Angeles (LA Live!), Pittsburgh (Consol! I mean PPG!), Philadelphi, Columbus, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, etc.

All larger than Calgary with newer facilities.

A lot more goes into booking concert venues than how new/nice the venue is...

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

You've just proven the point they don't skip here because of the Dome, they clearly will play here. They just skipped this time, as bands will do sometimes. Pearl Jam skipped Edmonton last time and came here, it happens. So this is much ado about nothing.

Actually it's becoming a prominent trend now. Drake just did Edmonton back-to-back nights rather than come to Calgary, and Kanye West is going to Edmonton but not Calgary.

I kinda have a conspiracy in my mind that it's kind of intentional to let these big acts skip Calgary to give the impression that they're not coming because of the outdated venue, which increases public pressure on getting a new one. Yes, Saddledome have some structural issues for some stages, and I don't know if these acts that have skipped simply couldn't do it in the Saddledome, but I find it suspicious since they've come before.