[GT] Jets at Flames

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I hope those of you not worried about offense because it wasn't a problem last year are right. I am mildly concerned we have less skill up front than at this time last year.

Maybe someone emerges.

Nope, the skill levels will be a problem this year. Basically we come in with a slight alteration between Colborne and Brouwer, although their point totals will be the roughly the same over the course of a season. So we have lost Hudler and replaced him with... Chaisson? Shinkaruk? Ferland? Someone that clearly isn't viable on a decent/good team to be on the first line regardless. Add in that they have replaced Russell with Jokipakka, who is more of a 6/7 guy than a #4 and have no other options.

The team in front of the goalie is worse. Significantly so. There is nothing that can be done about it until the 15 million dollars due to bottom end players are removed. Only 3 or so of that will be spent on Goalie raises and Bennett's new contract (his cap hit is already over 3 million, won't get 6 until he unleashes the beast).

Next year, the Flames will properly be able to address the lineup. Now we are stuck. The only saving grace is that players will get an opportunity in positions they would otherwise not receive shots in and see if they can rise to the occasion. I'm thinking at this point next year that TJ Oshie may be in a Flaming "C" because he's the only quality RW under the age of 30 available and it's doubtful that the Caps will be able to afford to keep him.

[Caged Great]

What would be fun to see is these as the bottom 9

Tkachuk-Bennett-Brouwer
Bouma-Backlund-Frolik
Ferland-Hamilton-Hathaway

7 really gritty forwards that will drive the opposition nuts.

[Madrox]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I hope those of you not worried about offense because it wasn't a problem last year are right. I am mildly concerned we have less skill up front than at this time last year.

Maybe someone emerges.

Backlund has been underrated for a while, and if you look at the NHL forward leaders from last year, his 47 points puts him at #97, barely in second line territory.

I think it should be clear that our biggest glaring opening is at first line RW, and I don't know that we have a guy on the team that can fill it, but we're certainly looking at a situation where we have 3 solid pairs at least, with the Monahan-Gaudreau, Bennett-Brouwer, Backlund-Frolik.

We need to find good support for the first pair, but I think the rest of the lineup should fall into place fairly well with how much offensive support our D gives. The thing to keep in mind is that with how bad last season was, we were 10th overall in goals scored. Offense wasn't our problem.

I get what you're concerned about with secondary scoring from guys like Colborne and Jones leaving, and of course Hudler, but the latter is the only guy who imo was a guy who made things happen on his own as opposed to took the opportunity they were given. There are openings for people to take, and I think we have some guys who can at worst get close to the holes that were created, and maybe have to ability to match or better the guys we had last year.

At worst, I think we fall 5 spots from the 10th overall in offense we had last year, but I would bet a fairly substantial sum that we improve in our defense more than we lose in our offense.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Was at the game with the kid, so I had to leave early (thankfully), but I thought there were a couple of positives.
Backlund/Frolik started slow, but improved as the game went on. They will be effective.
Bennett is playing with confidence. Better when Brouwer is in the line-up, but that should be a really good line. Tkatchuk will be a tough call, as he does need to bulk up to play his style effectively.
For the PTO guys, I thought Korpikoski and Grigorev looked OK. Prefer Korpikoski over Higgens, from limited viewings.

Really tough game to evaluate, seeing how poorly the goaltending was in the first half. A couple of bad breakdowns in the D zone, but I didn't think they were hemmed in as badly as last year. On offence, I don't have a feel as to how they want to play. Hopefully a product of having half a line up, without our best players, but it seemed like we were shoveling the puck towards the net, and hoping for the best.

They need to cut this thing down to 27-28 players and get on with it.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Nope, the skill levels will be a problem this year. Basically we come in with a slight alteration between Colborne and Brouwer, although their point totals will be the roughly the same over the course of a season. So we have lost Hudler and replaced him with... Chaisson? Shinkaruk? Ferland? Someone that clearly isn't viable on a decent/good team to be on the first line regardless. Add in that they have replaced Russell with Jokipakka, who is more of a 6/7 guy than a #4 and have no other options.

The team in front of the goalie is worse. Significantly so. There is nothing that can be done about it until the 15 million dollars due to bottom end players are removed. Only 3 or so of that will be spent on Goalie raises and Bennett's new contract (his cap hit is already over 3 million, won't get 6 until he unleashes the beast).

Next year, the Flames will properly be able to address the lineup. Now we are stuck. The only saving grace is that players will get an opportunity in positions they would otherwise not receive shots in and see if they can rise to the occasion. I'm thinking at this point next year that TJ Oshie may be in a Flaming "C" because he's the only quality RW under the age of 30 available and it's doubtful that the Caps will be able to afford to keep him.

I kind of agree with you, I was worried about moving on from Hudler for this very reason. But this is WAY overstated.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Nope, the skill levels will be a problem this year. Basically we come in with a slight alteration between Colborne and Brouwer, although their point totals will be the roughly the same over the course of a season.

So we have lost Hudler and replaced him with... Chaisson? Shinkaruk? Ferland? Someone that clearly isn't viable on a decent/good team to be on the first line regardless. Add in that they have replaced Russell with Jokipakka, who is more of a 6/7 guy than a #4 and have no other options.

The team in front of the goalie is worse. Significantly so. There is nothing that can be done about it until the 15 million dollars due to bottom end players are removed. Only 3 or so of that will be spent on Goalie raises and Bennett's new contract (his cap hit is already over 3 million, won't get 6 until he unleashes the beast).

Next year, the Flames will properly be able to address the lineup. Now we are stuck. The only saving grace is that players will get an opportunity in positions they would otherwise not receive shots in and see if they can rise to the occasion. I'm thinking at this point next year that TJ Oshie may be in a Flaming "C" because he's the only quality RW under the age of 30 available and it's doubtful that the Caps will be able to afford to keep him.

Not sure I understand how the team up front of the goalies are worse.....

Defense is solid, if they stay healthy they will be a strength of team.

Biggest areas of concern last season was the goal-tending and lack of experience within the team.

Bennett has one more year of experience this alone is an upgrade

Brouwer is an upgrade over Hudler or Colborne, Brouwer adds grit, experience, defense and leadership.

Offense won't be an issue assuming the Flames sign Gaudreau.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Nope, the skill levels will be a problem this year. Basically we come in with a slight alteration between Colborne and Brouwer, although their point totals will be the roughly the same over the course of a season. So we have lost Hudler and replaced him with... Chaisson? Shinkaruk? Ferland? Someone that clearly isn't viable on a decent/good team to be on the first line regardless. Add in that they have replaced Russell with Jokipakka, who is more of a 6/7 guy than a #4 and have no other options.

The team in front of the goalie is worse. Significantly so. There is nothing that can be done about it until the 15 million dollars due to bottom end players are removed. Only 3 or so of that will be spent on Goalie raises and Bennett's new contract (his cap hit is already over 3 million, won't get 6 until he unleashes the beast).

Next year, the Flames will properly be able to address the lineup. Now we are stuck. The only saving grace is that players will get an opportunity in positions they would otherwise not receive shots in and see if they can rise to the occasion. I'm thinking at this point next year that TJ Oshie may be in a Flaming "C" because he's the only quality RW under the age of 30 available and it's doubtful that the Caps will be able to afford to keep him.

Bennett's cap hit this year is 985K As the Flames will be close to the cap if he hits his bonuses this year some of it will come out of next years cap.

Right now the Flames have 11 player signed for 2017-18 with 30 M of cap left over and only Stajan 3.15 and Bouma 2.2 as bad contracts (Total bad contract money of say 3M as they easily deserve 1.1-1.2 M each.


that will be 12 player signed and 22.5 left if Gaudreau signs for 7.5

If Elliott is anywhere near what he is expected that would use 6M of Cap for Elliot and Gillies.

14 players signed 16.5 left

Bennett, just playing at the 2015-16 level will be looking at least a 3x2 bridge contract

15 players signed 13.5M left

That means we need to sign 5 D-men and 5 forwards for 13.5M

4 d-men at 1M 4 forwards at 1M leaves 5.5M for a top 9 winger and #4 d-man

Tell me how you structure any offer to any UFA with the Flames cap reality?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

^^ I think you are double counting Bennett, as his cap hit is already 3+ for salary cap purposes. More importantly, you have basically laid out a top 9 forward and top 4 D (if you include Kevin as an RFA). The Flames won't need 10 high priced guys, especially if you factor in RFAs and ELCs. Thankfully all roster decisions aren't frozen until 2017, as you seem to suggest. Lot's of moving parts, especially considering the expansion draft.

There isn't a ton of room, but it isn't as bad as you make it out.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

^^ I think you are double counting Bennett, as his cap hit is already 3+ for salary cap purposes. More importantly, you have basically laid out a top 9 forward and top 4 D (if you include Kevin as an RFA). The Flames won't need 10 high priced guys, especially if you factor in RFAs and ELCs. Thankfully all roster decisions aren't frozen until 2017, as you seem to suggest. Lot's of moving parts, especially considering the expansion draft.

There isn't a ton of room, but it isn't as bad as you make it out.

2016-17 Flames The 11 players signed for 43.7M

Monahan
Brouwer
Backlund
Frolik
Stajan
Bouma
Hamilton $612K
Shinkaruk 863k

Gio
Brodie
Hamilton

---------

Players I added 2 goalies total 6M Gaudreau 7.5 and Bennett 3M leaving 13.5M of cap space.

Yep it is that bad

[Fighting Banana Slug]

^^ Need two bottom 6 F and 2 bottom D. How much are you paying for those? Still could use a top 6 winger, for sure, but that isn't impossible under this structure.

[Roof-Daddy]

What's so "bad" about it?

You have there:

- Three 20-25 minute per night core defensemen to build the D around
- Monahan, Bennett, Backlund down the middle
- Gaudreau, Brouwer, Frolik to pair with those legit centers
- What should be solid goaltending

2017/18 CORE

Gaudreau - Monahan - ???????
????????? - Bennett - Brouwer
????????? - Backlund - Frolik
L Bouma - M Stajan - ????????

Giordano - Brodie
????????? - Hamilton
????????? - ?????????

Elliot
Gillies

That's an awesome core to build around and a team that is built the right way.

Strong goaltending
Strong top end D
Strong down the middle

Should be no problem filling out that roster properly, even with Stajan/Bouma eating up $5 + million as the 4th line "pairing".

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Nope, the skill levels will be a problem this year. Basically we come in with a slight alteration between Colborne and Brouwer, although their point totals will be the roughly the same over the course of a season. So we have lost Hudler and replaced him with... Chaisson? Shinkaruk? Ferland? Someone that clearly isn't viable on a decent/good team to be on the first line regardless. Add in that they have replaced Russell with Jokipakka, who is more of a 6/7 guy than a #4 and have no other options.

The team in front of the goalie is worse. Significantly so. There is nothing that can be done about it until the 15 million dollars due to bottom end players are removed. Only 3 or so of that will be spent on Goalie raises and Bennett's new contract (his cap hit is already over 3 million, won't get 6 until he unleashes the beast).

Next year, the Flames will properly be able to address the lineup. Now we are stuck. The only saving grace is that players will get an opportunity in positions they would otherwise not receive shots in and see if they can rise to the occasion. I'm thinking at this point next year that TJ Oshie may be in a Flaming "C" because he's the only quality RW under the age of 30 available and it's doubtful that the Caps will be able to afford to keep him.

I usually think you have a great read on anything Flames, but this post is way off base. I don't even think an Oiler fan would be delusional enough to believe this.

1. Losing Hudler is addition by subtraction. He was terrible on the top line last season. 90% of his points were fully a credit to Monahan and Gaudreau. He was downright bad for Florida too.

2. Losing Russell is going to help our possession numbers. Jokipakka has been up and down, but I still like him as our number 5 guy.

3. Colborne had way more opportunity on the Flames than Brouwer did with St. Louis. There's 0 chance Colborne comes within 10 points this year with Brouwer on the 2nd line with Bennett. Also, Colborne was only good when the games didn't matter.

4. Wideman can't get any worse than last year and actually looks serviceable so far in the pre-season.

5. Kulak looks to be poised to start the season in the NHL once again, but this time with a healthy roster. He's a very solid 2-way defenseman.

6. Bennett looks to be on another level this season. With Tkachuk on his LW and Brouwer on his RW, we now have 2 legit scoring lines instead of 1. And with Bennett away from Backlund, he'll have more looks in the offensive zone this season.

7. Hopefully Frolik can stay healthy this season. It was obvious he helped our team defense drastically when in the line-up.

8. Another year's maturity on one of the youngest teams in the NHL.

I mean, seriously why the hell do you think we're worse this year?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I usually think you have a great read on anything Flames, but this post is way off base. I don't even think an Oiler fan would be delusional enough to believe this.

1. Losing Hudler is addition by subtraction. He was terrible on the top line last season. 90% of his points were fully a credit to Monahan and Gaudreau. He was downright bad for Florida too.

2. Losing Russell is going to help our possession numbers. Jokipakka has been up and down, but I still like him as our number 5 guy.

3. Colborne had way more opportunity on the Flames than Brouwer did with St. Louis. There's 0 chance Colborne comes within 10 points this year with Brouwer on the 2nd line with Bennett. Also, Colborne was only good when the games didn't matter.

4. Wideman can't get any worse than last year and actually looks serviceable so far in the pre-season.

5. Kulak looks to be poised to start the season in the NHL once again, but this time with a healthy roster. He's a very solid 2-way defenseman.

6. Bennett looks to be on another level this season. With Tkachuk on his LW and Brouwer on his RW, we now have 2 legit scoring lines instead of 1. And with Bennett away from Backlund, he'll have more looks in the offensive zone this season.

7. Hopefully Frolik can stay healthy this season. It was obvious he helped our team defense drastically when in the line-up.

8. Another year's maturity on one of the youngest teams in the NHL.

I mean, seriously why the hell do you think we're worse this year?

These are pretty much my thoughts, although I would not go so far as to declare Hudler's replacement "addition by subtraction." I'm more of the opinion that as the third player on the top line he was a "replacement player": an adequate complimentary player whose job is basically to keep up with the other two. The top line will be productive because Monahan and Gaudreau will produce, and it doesn't matter significantly who the third player on the line is. This is how a lot of teams are constructed and find success in today's NHL: does anyone seriously think that Bryan Rust or Conor Sheary are legitimately top-six NHLers?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by AC

Yeah I'd be happy to see the Flames sign Korpikoski.

I think fans would tire of him by December at the latest. He's TJ Galiardi out there. Skates and skates and skates but nothing much happens.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

What's so "bad" about it?

You have there:

- Three 20-25 minute per night core defensemen to build the D around
- Monahan, Bennett, Backlund down the middle
- Gaudreau, Brouwer, Frolik to pair with those legit centers
- What should be solid goaltending

2017/18 CORE

Gaudreau - Monahan - ???????
????????? - Bennett - Brouwer
????????? - Backlund - Frolik
L Bouma - M Stajan - ????????

Giordano - Brodie
????????? - Hamilton
????????? - ?????????

Elliot
Gillies

That's an awesome core to build around and a team that is built the right way.

Strong goaltending
Strong top end D
Strong down the middle

Should be no problem filling out that roster properly, even with Stajan/Bouma eating up $5 + million as the 4th line "pairing".

start of 2009-10

????? - Jokinien - Iginla
Bourque - Langkow- ????
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
????- ???? -????

Bouwmeester- Regher
Phanuef - Sarich
Gio -???

Kipper

Same sort of high level talent.

Filling in the 2017-18 ???? with Tkachuk that leaves 6 holes in both line-ups .... Probably the same or less relative cap space for ???? in 2017-18 That was the start of the no playoffs in 6 year run.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Roster on it's way down vs rosters potentially on it's way up. Why someone has to spell that out for you, I don't know.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

start of 2009-10

????? - Jokinien - Iginla
Bourque - Langkow- ????
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
????- ???? -????

Bouwmeester- Regher
Phanuef - Sarich
Gio -???

Kipper

Same sort of high level talent Filling in the 2017-18 ???? with Tkachuk that leaves 6 holes in both line-ups .... Probably the same or less relative cap space for ???? in 2017-18 That was the start of the no playoffs in 6 year run.

Good comparison:

Except all of those players were on the downward trajectory of their careers., and there was little to nothing in the cupboard going forward.

Except the top 4 D is better as a group.

Except: Line for line the Flames are better that that 09 group.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

start of 2009-10

????? - Jokinien - Iginla
Bourque - Langkow- ????
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
????- ???? -????

Bouwmeester- Regher
Phanuef - Sarich
Gio -???

Kipper

Same sort of high level talent.

Filling in the 2017-18 ???? with Tkachuk that leaves 6 holes in both line-ups .... Probably the same or less relative cap space for ???? in 2017-18 That was the start of the no playoffs in 6 year run.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Good comparison:

Except all of those players were on the downward trajectory of their careers., and there was little to nothing in the cupboard going forward.

Except the top 4 D is better as a group.

Except: Line for line the Flames are better that that 09 group.

Guys over 30

Iginla 32 Langkow 32 Jokinen 30 Kipper 32 Sarich 31 Conroy 37 in 2009-10


Gio 34 Brouwer 32 Elliott 32 Frolik 30 Stajan 33 in 2017-18


What is in the Flames current cupboard better than Backlund and Brodie? keep in mind I expect Tkachuk to be a real NHL player next year filling in a ????

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Guys over 30

Iginla 32 Langkow 32 Jokinen 30 Kipper 32 Sarich 31 Conroy 37 in 2009-10


Gio 34 Brouwer 32 Elliott 32 Frolik 30 Stajan 33 in 2017-18


What is in the Flames current cupboard better than Backlund and Brodie? keep in mind I expect Tkachuk to be a real NHL player next year filling in a ????

This is so obtuse that a rebuttal would feel too obvious and simple.