China's Millionaire Migration

[CliffFletcher]

Vancouver is where China's elite hide their riches, often gained through a corrupt economic and political system. I'm sure they have the very best money-hiding and money-laundering experts money can buy. And of course Canadian authorities pretty much turn a blind eye because Canadian interests are making a lot of money off the whole thing.

[Flamenspiel]

I think we are getting sidetracked, the articles in the Globe and Mail, BNN, and other newspapers are primarily focused on wether the real estate in question is illegal and/or exposed to excessive risk. Of course, someone had to raise the racism flag that seems to sidetrack every thread no matter how remote the topic is.

The fact is that in comparison to the US banks, the loans in question would not be allowed, even if you had the cash. US banks would require data on exactly where that 35% and the 1st year in payments are coming from, among other things this prevents the sort of potential money laundering that was reported last week by FinTRAC and Kathy Tomlinson. Furthermore there is also a question of real estate firms violating elements of the money laundering act.

"Federal examiners visited 80 realty offices in the Vancouver area to delve into their paperwork and procedures. In 55 instances – most involving brokerage firms and some focusing just on individual agents – they found practices significantly lacking."

You only have look back a few years to the US real estate crash where many western Canadians took advantage of the low real estate prices to buy properties in Hawaii, California and Arizona. If you were a Canadian looking to finance such a deal, you were certainly not getting it from a US bank, you would have needed to put up the cash or get it from Canadian bank.

So what exactly is going on here? How exposed is the Canadian market to having the plug pulled on this? Those are really the questions that need to be asked.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

but can a person bankwire as much as they want? like millions without suspicion? Even if parents physicall come over they can only carry what? $5000 on the plane?

You can bring as much money into Canada as you want as long as you declare it. There is nothing illegal happening so no reason for suspicion.

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/much-...tor-54913.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/real...yers-1.3479508

You can buy property in Canada without even being in Canada. My sister's neighbour sold their house to someone in Iran the day it went on the market.

It's not just Asians for that matter. For a period of time, there were quite a few Russian tycoons buying property in Vancouver as well.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The provincial government has handed over Vancouver to the Chinese on a silver platter. This issue needs to be contained not spread out. China owns Vancouver (the city isn't an economic driver in the country so no big loss outside of the fact a beautiful city is primarily owned by foreign investors) so there's not much that can be done outside of ensuring that this issue doesn't spread to other cities.

This is what I was talking about earlier. Your statements are extremely racist. Unfortunately, statements like yours are frequently made, and they don't have substance to back them up. More people hear them and continue to pass this hate message on. Saying Vancouver is owned by the Chinese is akin to saying Obama is a Muslim. Unless you have some actual facts and figures, you should keep these comments to yourself.

[Kavvy]

edit: not helping!

[peter12]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

This is what I was talking about earlier. Your statements are extremely racist. Unfortunately, statements like yours are frequently made, and they don't have substance to back them up. More people hear them and continue to pass this hate message on. Saying Vancouver is owned by the Chinese is akin to saying Obama is a Muslim. Unless you have some actual facts and figures, you should keep these comments to yourself.

The racist card is frequently pulled to obfuscate a very important issue.

Yes, FOMO, low interest rates, and cognitive biases have all played a part in this mess, but there are some very important criminal interests from mainland China playing a very dangerous game at the top of the market.

This is indisputable. To ask for numbers at this point is pure sophistry.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by peter12

The racist card is frequently pulled to obfuscate a very important issue.

Yes, FOMO, low interest rates, and cognitive biases have all played a part in this mess, but there are some very important criminal interests from mainland China playing a very dangerous game at the top of the market.

This is indisputable. To ask for numbers at this point is pure sophistry.

I agree with your point, but the racist statements are made without any education on the issue as well.
Misguided blanket statements about all Chinese people doesn't help deal with the "criminal interests from Mainland China" you're referring to.

I've been dealing with this discussion every day for years, and it's shocking how many people use immigrants/foreigners interchangeably, assume every Chinese immigrant is a multi millionaire and completely exaggerate the proportion of foreign buying without any evidence to back it up.

The dialogue around the issue has become very Brexit like at this point; spurred on by sensational headlines and very polarizing.
Not a productive way to make meaningful changes and impact the actual issues.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I agree with your point, but the racist statements are made without any education on the issue as well.
Misguided blanket statements about all Chinese people doesn't help deal with the "criminal interests from Mainland China" you're referring to.

I've been dealing with this discussion every day for years, and it's shocking how many people use immigrants/foreigners interchangeably, assume every Chinese immigrant is a multi millionaire and completely exaggerate the proportion of foreign buying without any evidence to back it up.

The dialogue around the issue has become very Brexit like at this point; spurred on by sensational headlines and very polarizing.
Not a productive way to make meaningful changes and impact the actual issues.

Agreed!

Additionally, when people post things like "China owns Vancouver" or "Foreigners own the majority of real estate in Vancouver", it shows you how misguided Canadians are on this.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by peter12

The racist card is frequently pulled to obfuscate a very important issue.

Yes, FOMO, low interest rates, and cognitive biases have all played a part in this mess, but there are some very important criminal interests from mainland China playing a very dangerous game at the top of the market.

This is indisputable. To ask for numbers at this point is pure sophistry.

Agreed. The Vancouver market seems destined for a crash. It is a shame because it seems this bubble could have been avoided (or at least mitigated substantially), by enforcing current law. Anti-money laundering enforcement seems like an obvious starting point. The primary residence rule on capital gains should be a very simply issue to deal with which would make the Vancouver market (and Canadian market in general) less appealing. None of this unnecessarily targets foreign buyers or should invoke claims of racism either.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I agree with your point, but the racist statements are made without any education on the issue as well.
Misguided blanket statements about all Chinese people doesn't help deal with the "criminal interests from Mainland China" you're referring to.

I've been dealing with this discussion every day for years, and it's shocking how many people use immigrants/foreigners interchangeably, assume every Chinese immigrant is a multi millionaire and completely exaggerate the proportion of foreign buying without any evidence to back it up.

The dialogue around the issue has become very Brexit like at this point; spurred on by sensational headlines and very polarizing.
Not a productive way to make meaningful changes and impact the actual issues.

I agree. I do know that way, way, way too many young professionals have thrown their lives away on mortgages that they really cannot afford. People following the high-end is a real reason why this is so out of control, but I think we all know that something fishy is going on at the high end.

It's not the Chinese community. Some of them have been here for 100 years, others have moved here with literally nothing. The gentrification of Chinatown, and the flight to the burbs have hurt both of these communities equally.

It is more likely a high-end criminal cartel run out of China that is causing a lot of the upper-end distortion.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Agreed. The Vancouver market seems destined for a crash. It is a shame because it seems this bubble could have been avoided (or at least mitigated substantially), by enforcing current law. Anti-money laundering enforcement seems like an obvious starting point. The primary residence rule on capital gains should be a very simply issue to deal with which would make the Vancouver market (and Canadian market in general) less appealing. None of this unnecessarily targets foreign buyers or should invoke claims of racism either.

Our government officials should all be tarred and feathered. Their complacency will make us all suffer.

[FlamesAddiction]

I won't use the r-word, but there does seem to be a harsh tone when people say "the Chinese" instead of just "Chinese". When someone says "the Chinese", it sounds like some kind of conspiracy by an ethnic group. Yeah sure, some of it is linked to organized crime, but most are just people taking advantage of something that we are letting take advantage of. Just like Cancun or Puerto Vallarta is to Canadians, Vancouver is a resort town for wealthy Asians. I'm not sure what the appeal of Toronto is though. That one puzzles me.


If a Canadian owned a condo in Mexico, it would come off as a little more rude if someone said that it was owned by "the Canadians" instead of just "Canadians". Having said that, I think Mexico has some pretty strict ownership rules for foreigners. I think they prefer to do those "99-year leases" instead of outright ownership if you are non-Mexican, so maybe not the best example.

[peter12]

Yeah, but the Chinese actually has some weight behind it. No one gives two deuces about the Canadians.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I won't use the r-word, but there does seem to be a harsh tone when people say "the Chinese" instead of just "Chinese". When someone says "the Chinese", it sounds like some kind of conspiracy by an ethnic group. Yeah sure, some of it is linked to organized crime, but most are just people taking advantage of something that we are letting take advantage of. Just like Cancun or Puerto Vallarta is to Canadians, Vancouver is a resort town for wealthy Asians. I'm not sure what the appeal of Toronto is though. That one puzzles me.


If a Canadian owned a condo in Mexico, it would come off as a little more rude if someone said that it was owned by "the Canadians" instead of just "Canadians". Having said that, I think Mexico has some pretty strict ownership rules for foreigners. I think they prefer to do those "99-year leases" instead of outright ownership if you are non-Mexican, so maybe not the best example.

My issue with saying Chinese, or the Chinese, is that it's not just people from China that are buying properties in Vancouver. There are many people, from many countries that want to own here. People from Iran, Japan, Australia, United States, United Kingdom, Russia, etc. and even other parts of Canada, want to buy in Vancouver. By saying only the Chinese are driving up prices, taking over Vancouver, ruining the economy, etc. is inherently racist. Why only say the Chinese, when there are many other countries, plus other Canadians, that are influencing the housing prices? I agree wholeheartedly there are housing issues in Vancouver. I hate how people blame Chinese people for what has transpired.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

My issue with saying Chinese, or the Chinese, is that it's not just people from China that are buying properties in Vancouver. There are many people, from many countries that want to own here. People from Iran, Japan, Australia, United States, United Kingdom, Russia, etc. and even other parts of Canada, want to buy in Vancouver. By saying only the Chinese are driving up prices, taking over Vancouver, ruining the economy, etc. is inherently racist. Why only say the Chinese, when there are many other countries, plus other Canadians, that are influencing the housing prices? I agree wholeheartedly there are housing issues in Vancouver. I hate how people blame Chinese people for what has transpired.

But the structural circumstances of China's political economy point to it being the driving factor of all of this. Once again, it is not racist to point this out.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

My issue with saying Chinese, or the Chinese, is that it's not just people from China that are buying properties in Vancouver. There are many people, from many countries that want to own here. People from Iran, Japan, Australia, United States, United Kingdom, Russia, etc. and even other parts of Canada, want to buy in Vancouver. By saying only the Chinese are driving up prices, taking over Vancouver, ruining the economy, etc. is inherently racist. Why only say the Chinese, when there are many other countries, plus other Canadians, that are influencing the housing prices? I agree wholeheartedly there are housing issues in Vancouver. I hate how people blame Chinese people for what has transpired.

I would be very interested in seeing the breakdown of investors from other countries. Based on media reports, I have assumed that there are more Chinese investors involved than any other nationality. Is that not the case?

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I would be very interested in seeing the breakdown of investors from other countries. Based on media reports, I have assumed that there are more Chinese investors involved than any other nationality. Is that not the case?

It's a very media driven, and provincial NDP government, point that the vast majority of investors are Chinese. There was an Andy Yan paper that discussed buyers in Vancouver. The media, and the NDP (mostly David Eby), took it to mean that all the buyers were Chinese, when that wasn't even close to what the paper said. Andy has even discussed this multiple times because of how the media portrayed his research.

I tried discussing it earlier in the thread that I had access to the purchaser lists of various buildings in Vancouver. My opinions were then dismissed because I worked for a developer and "had skin in the game". Without even going into the information I had, my data was already being dismissed. Because I had something different from the media, and these posters' positions, it was cast aside without thought.

It's much easier for the media, and the opposition government's housing critic, to group all foreign people into one nation. It's way quicker to say Chinese, rather than giving a breakdown. That way they have a stronger, albeit false, position. They ask for foreign buyer data, but don't like the results once they get it. They sensationalize buying houses, instead of focusing on ways to actually fix the problems. They produce statements such as the developers are all in Gregor's pockets. Without development, the supply remains flat. With a flat supply, the prices will inflate. You can't complain about the lack of housing and simultaneously complain that developers are building condos.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

It's a very media driven, and provincial NDP government, point that the vast majority of investors are Chinese. There was an Andy Yan paper that discussed buyers in Vancouver. The media, and the NDP (mostly David Eby), took it to mean that all the buyers were Chinese, when that wasn't even close to what the paper said. Andy has even discussed this multiple times because of how the media portrayed his research.

I tried discussing it earlier in the thread that I had access to the purchaser lists of various buildings in Vancouver. My opinions were then dismissed because I worked for a developer and "had skin in the game". Without even going into the information I had, my data was already being dismissed. Because I had something different from the media, and these posters' positions, it was cast aside without thought.

It's much easier for the media, and the opposition government's housing critic, to group all foreign people into one nation. It's way quicker to say Chinese, rather than giving a breakdown. That way they have a stronger, albeit false, position. They ask for foreign buyer data, but don't like the results once they get it. They sensationalize buying houses, instead of focusing on ways to actually fix the problems. They produce statements such as the developers are all in Gregor's pockets. Without development, the supply remains flat. With a flat supply, the prices will inflate. You can't complain about the lack of housing and simultaneously complain that developers are building condos.

I don't think anyone rationally thinks that the entire problem is Chinese driven, however, (if I understand the Yan paper as reported), if 2/3 of foreign buyers are Chinese, and more importantly, "on paper are students and housewives", then I think it is fair to scrutinize those transactions to ensure that they are legitimate.

To put it differently, I take no issue with anyone, of any race or citizenship buying properties within the rules. My problem is if buyers are circumventing anti-laundering provisions, or are acting in a manner in contravention of tax laws. If that is an issue with American, British, Indian etc. investors, the Canadian government needs to take action against them as well.

[peter12]

Given squiggs' position in the Vancouver real estate industry, it is no surprise that he is pretty squirrelly about actually stating his opinion.

I get that he thinks we should build condos. Of course, we need to increase supply. Kind of a classic bit of misdirection there, btw.

I am more interested as to his opinion on the exploding price bubble, and its causes. Maybe he can't state that for professional reasons, and I would understand. However, he did call out a few posters for being racist, which is a significant accusation given how little he has done to support his own position.

Speaking of that, what is his position?

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by peter12

Speaking of that, what is his position?

More condos?