[Rumour] The Kris Russell Sweepstakes Continue - UPDATE: Oilers offer 1-year deal?

[Young_Guns]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Dustin Nielson ‏@nielsonTSN1260 3m3 minutes ago
I've been told that the Oilers have offered a one year deal to Russell. May have another update later today. Let's see where this goes.

Rumored to be 4 or 5 mil.

[ClubFlames]

Originally Posted by BlackWallStreet

I would lose a ton of respect/admiration if Kris signs in edm

For trying to make money and play hockey?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by pac_4_ever

Rumored to be 4 or 5 mil.

Source?

[C_of_Red28]

I always told coiler fans that they should sign him. Think he would fit well up there. I'm a fan of Russell if the contract is right.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Stats don't back any of this ...

The Flames struggled to start the season, but when you look at Hamilton's minutes last year the following is the result.

Partner Time CF%
Russell 552 min 44.6
Giordano 220 min 52.8%
Engellend 175 min 50.4%
Brodie 149 min 52.8%
Jokipakka 76 min 41.6%
Wideman 76 min 56%

The only real zit is with Russell, and given the fact that Russell was between 40 and 44% CF with every single partner in Calgary and Dallas last year, I'm not sure it was Hamilton's fault.

Wideman/Russell did their best but they were always a sink hole in possession.

This could be interpreted (especially when combined with actual , not judged event, such as goals that drive +/-) that when Hamilton and Wideman were paired the Flames took a lot of shots.... when the other team shot it went in the net and Hartley sent out the next pairing.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BlackWallStreet

I would lose a ton of respect/admiration if Kris signs in edm

Ehh...I know, but much like Ference these guys have a limited skill-set and a limited time/opportunity to maximize the value of those skills.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This could be interpreted (especially when combined with actual , not judged event, such as goals that drive +/-) that when Hamilton and Wideman were paired the Flames took a lot of shots.... when the other team shot it went in the net and Hartley sent out the next pairing.

Judged event?

Corsi is the tabulation of all shot attempts by both teams when said player is on the ice. (on net, in the net, blocked, shot wide)

It isn't someone deciding what a shot attempt is or isn't any more than a person is deciding what a shot on goal is.

So it means when Wideman and Russell were on the ice they were getting almost 60% of shot attempts coming at them.

I honestly hate the notion that a spreadsheet is a better judge of a hockey player than what I see, but it's hard to argue against shot attempts.

[dammage79]

Please, let Russell Sign with Edmonton. I think the Flames will be just fine without him.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Judged event?

Corsi is the tabulation of all shot attempts by both teams when said player is on the ice. (on net, in the net, blocked, shot wide)

It isn't someone deciding what a shot attempt is or isn't any more than a person is deciding what a shot on goal is.

So it means when Wideman and Russell were on the ice they were getting almost 60% of shot attempts coming at them.

I honestly hate the notion that a spreadsheet is a better judge of a hockey player than what I see, but it's hard to argue against shot attempts.

Shots on goal are judgement calls.

There are shot attempts from outside the blue line... Out of the hundreds taken 1 or 2 become goals. Is icing a missed shot? If it hits the goalie is is a Shot on goal? If a defender skates it down before slides to the goalie is it a blocked shot? A pass to the front of the net: a shot attempt or a pass? A pass to the front of the net that the goalie intercepts: a shot on goal? A judgement is made. a goal is a goal - only judgement is if it crosses the line and goes in.

PS Does it matter if the other team take a lot of low % shots rather than coming in making a good pass making the goalie re-position and have a single scoring chance.


If you are taking judgement stats then why not use scoring chances?

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Judged event?

Corsi is the tabulation of all shot attempts by both teams when said player is on the ice. (on net, in the net, blocked, shot wide)

It isn't someone deciding what a shot attempt is or isn't any more than a person is deciding what a shot on goal is.

So it means when Wideman and Russell were on the ice they were getting almost 60% of shot attempts coming at them.

I honestly hate the notion that a spreadsheet is a better judge of a hockey player than what I see, but it's hard to argue against shot attempts.

^Soon I think this perception that eye test will always be superior will be start being challenged more.

How can anyone be, frankly, so arrogant as to say that their own eyes are capable of processing all this visual data coming in during a hockey game and analyze everything in an unbiased and objective way. No one can.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by saillias

^Soon I think this perception that eye test will always be superior will be start being challenged more.

How can anyone be, frankly, so arrogant as to say that their own eyes are capable of processing all this visual data coming in during a hockey game and analyze everything in an unbiased and objective way. No one can.

Maybe not in an unbiased way, but the human brain is capable of processing thousands of small and almost imperceptible events at the same time. Experienced eyes are still extremely valuable, if you know what you're looking for. Stats help to dig deeper and either confirm or deny your observations. They should never be relied on solely for all of your thoughts.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Steinberg was quite outspoken against Russell as a player. Didn't him and Loubardias have an argument on air over this stuff?

Outspoken against him? Steinberg puts more weight into fancy stats than Loubardias and as such they argued over how valuable he was. To say he was outspoken against him is a bit of a misrepresentation IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Kris Russel is a really bad defenceman. The only thing he's got is heart. His defensive game is terrible, he lets players come into the slot every time and then tried to block the shot. Many times he succeeds and many more time he fails.

I really hope Edmonton gets him.

A really bad defensemen? Good lord. Really bad does describe your posting accurately though.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Outspoken against him? Steinberg puts more weight into fancy stats than Loubardias and as such they argued over how valuable he was. To say he was outspoken against him is a bit of a misrepresentation IMO.

Didn't they get into a HUGE on-air argument last year about Russell?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Didn't they get into a HUGE on-air argument last year about Russell?

Yep, heard the whole thing. But how much of that was Steinberg playing devil's advocate and presenting the fancy stats argument? That was most of it. Why did the discussion blow up so much? Because Loubardias was under the weather and Steinberg kept poking and prodding him until he blew up and got emotional.

Doesn't mean Steinberg thinks Russell is a terrible defenseman. Which being "outspoken against him" kind of implies don't you think? Loubardias obviously values Russell highly and Steinberg not as highly. But that's a far cry from "outspoken against him".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep, heard the whole thing. But how much of that was Steinberg playing devil's advocate and presenting the fancy stats argument? That was most of it. Why did the discussion blow up so much? Because Loubardias was under the weather and Steinberg kept poking and prodding him until he blew up and got emotional.

Doesn't mean Steinberg thinks Russell is a terrible defenseman. Which being "outspoken against him" kind of implies don't you think? Loubardias obviously values Russell highly and Steinberg not as highly. But that's a far cry from "outspoken against him".

I think Steinberg didn't think too highly of him, and fancy stats played a big role. I think he pointed out his flaws which I think qualifies as being outspoken against him. I don't say he hated him or anything.

[saillias]

I recall Steinberg got upset first, kinda kicked things off by saying "why do you always do this?! You're waving me off you always waive me off" and then Loubo raised his voice in response.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep, heard the whole thing. But how much of that was Steinberg playing devil's advocate and presenting the fancy stats argument? That was most of it. Why did the discussion blow up so much? Because Loubardias was under the weather and Steinberg kept poking and prodding him until he blew up and got emotional.

Doesn't mean Steinberg thinks Russell is a terrible defenseman. Which being "outspoken against him" kind of implies don't you think? Loubardias obviously values Russell highly and Steinberg not as highly. But that's a far cry from "outspoken against him".

I don't think saying that somebody is "quite outspoken against him" (as a player) is the same as thinking he's terrible. but ok.

All I meant was that the 960 guys like Loubardias and Wills seemed to love Russell, and Steinberg was one of the few who didn't feel the same way.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Shots on goal are judgement calls.

There are shot attempts from outside the blue line... Out of the hundreds taken 1 or 2 become goals. Is icing a missed shot? If it hits the goalie is is a Shot on goal? If a defender skates it down before slides to the goalie is it a blocked shot? A pass to the front of the net: a shot attempt or a pass? A pass to the front of the net that the goalie intercepts: a shot on goal? A judgement is made. a goal is a goal - only judgement is if it crosses the line and goes in.

PS Does it matter if the other team take a lot of low % shots rather than coming in making a good pass making the goalie re-position and have a single scoring chance.


If you are taking judgement stats then why not use scoring chances?

Your examples are all good, and if we were basing it on 5 games I'd be with you.

My numbers were 3 seasons for Wideman and Russel. So to discount it you'd have to have all your examples only hurting them and never helping them which seems pretty unlikely.

Big sample sizes of collected data will correct for those things.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by saillias

I recall Steinberg got upset first, kinda kicked things off by saying "why do you always do this?! You're waving me off you always waive me off" and then Loubo raised his voice in response.

It's Pinder that's quite outspoken against Russell. Steinberg states often that advanced stats don't point towards Russell as being a top 4 defender to which is correct according to advanced stats metrics.