Teachers work "really hard'.

[polak]

I don't think there's any amount you could pay me to deal with children day in and day out, every day, for the rest of my working life. Sure, the well behaved, smart ones are a walk in the park, but the #### disturbers and stupid kids that can't comprehend basic instructions and better yet, their parents???

That'd drive me mental. You can't even hit them anymore.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Still wondering why we're really so concerned with teachers when family doctors appear to do almost nothing and are paid three times the amount.

Neither of those are true, though. I was married to a family doc for many years. She worked 5 days a week, long hours. Spend 1 - 2 hours every evening doing charts before she could come home. Was on call at least one or two days every week, and many weekends. Nearly every Christmas for the first few years we were married she was at the hospital delivering babies. I used to take her a paper plate of turkey and mashed potatoes to eat in the hall in between deliveries. I can't count the amount of times I woke up at 2:00 AM to find her gone to the hospital for a delivery.

Out of total billings she had to run an office, pay a nurse, pay a receptionist, and pay incredible amounts for insurance - over $12K per year 20 years ago just for additional insurance required to do deliveries. If we went on holidays she had to pay another doctor to take over her practice. No benefits, and no retirement plan.

At the end of the day she made ok money, but not nearly what people always believed she made.

Couple of interesting facts - the fee schedule she billed off in the 1990s was basically the same schedule that doctors billed in the 1970s. She got $220 to deliver a baby, including pre and post delivery appointments. Very often patients would privately hire massage therapists or mid wives to be present at the delivery that would get paid hundreds of dollars more.

But this is about teachers. I'll leave now.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Slava

Are you an advisor? That is super dangerous advice and certainly doesn't apply to every scenario. I don't know who you're advising or recommending this to, but they hopefully consider a second opinion because there is a lot more to consider than just rate of return.

Plus he's wrong. AIMCO manages the public pension funds in Alberta and they do a terrific job. Maybe he pulled the 2011 return and used it to suit his argument? Quick google search for the last 5 years of returns (net of fees):

2015: 9.1%
2014: 9.9%
2013: 12.5%
2012: 10.2%
2011: 4.8%

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Vox

Neither of those are true, though. I was married to a family doc for many years. She worked 5 days a week, long hours. Spend 1 - 2 hours every evening doing charts before she could come home. Was on call at least one or two days every week, and many weekends. Nearly every Christmas for the first few years we were married she was at the hospital delivering babies. I used to take her a paper plate of turkey and mashed potatoes to eat in the hall in between deliveries. I can't count the amount of times I woke up at 2:00 AM to find her gone to the hospital for a delivery.

Out of total billings she had to run an office, pay a nurse, pay a receptionist, and pay incredible amounts for insurance - over $12K per year 20 years ago just for additional insurance required to do deliveries. If we went on holidays she had to pay another doctor to take over her practice. No benefits, and no retirement plan.

At the end of the day she made ok money, but not nearly what people always believed she made.

Couple of interesting facts - the fee schedule she billed off in the 1990s was basically the same schedule that doctors billed in the 1970s. She got $220 to deliver a baby, including pre and post delivery appointments. Very often patients would privately hire massage therapists or mid wives to be present at the delivery that would get paid hundreds of dollars more.

But this is about teachers. I'll leave now.

That doesn't sound like a family doctor here though? Don't they refer to ob/gyn for deliveries and pregnancy?

And the no pension isn't really the case either. They have MD Mgmt which runs their plans I think, and while I don't know all of the specifics there is some kind of savings component which can be arranged.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by heep223

Plus he's wrong. AIMCO manages the public pension funds in Alberta and they do a terrific job. Maybe he pulled the 2011 return and used it to suit his argument? Quick google search for the last 5 years of returns (net of fees):

2015: 9.1%
2014: 9.9%
2013: 12.5%
2012: 10.2%
2011: 4.8%

Well even if the rate of return is equal to what you can do yourself, there are a lot of other considerations aside from the inheritance issue. I mean yeah if I was 54 years old and diagnosed with a terminal illness then that might weigh heavily on my decision to take the commuted value, and there are going to be some cases. But to give blanket advice about a DB pension because you think you can earn a little more is just not responsible.

[Canehdianman]

This is always such an inane argument.

Look at it this way. If teaching were waaaaay harder than any other job, there wouldn't be people lining up to do it.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well even if the rate of return is equal to what you can do yourself, there are a lot of other considerations aside from the inheritance issue. I mean yeah if I was 54 years old and diagnosed with a terminal illness then that might weigh heavily on my decision to take the commuted value, and there are going to be some cases. But to give blanket advice about a DB pension because you think you can earn a little more is just not responsible.

It's not though. This isn't a retail advisor or mutual fund manager managing teacher pensions.

You probably know by now that I am a supporter of using long term low cost indexing strategies for the average retail investor. But this is not one of those cases. Said teacher, through their pension, has access to one of the most highly respected institutional money managers in the world who manages our province's public capital. The fees they pay and the strategies they employ aren't typically accessible to retail investors. Taking it out would be dumber than dumb.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Slava

That doesn't sound like a family doctor here though? Don't they refer to ob/gyn for deliveries and pregnancy?

No. GPs with an interest in obstetrics do the majority of low risk deliveries. Obstetricians only tend to be involved in high risk maternity patients.

Originally Posted by Slava

And the no pension isn't really the case either. They have MD Mgmt which runs their plans I think, and while I don't know all of the specifics there is some kind of savings component which can be arranged.

No. MD Mgmt is essentially a financial advisory and investment firm associated with the CMA, not a pension fund. I was gifted 18$ to invest in their investment fund as a med student and I think its now worth ~20$ after 10+ years.

There is no pension for physicians.

[puckedoff]

Guys the pension argument has been settled mathematically in the post above (#308). 4% < 6%. QED.

Lets get this thread back on track of bashing teachers/teaching profession/students/milennials and, if there is time, University Profs.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

No. GPs with an interest in obstetrics do the majority of low risk deliveries. Obstetricians only tend to be involved in high risk maternity patients.



No. MD Mgmt is essentially a financial advisory and investment firm associated with the CMA, not a pension fund. I was gifted 18$ to invest in their investment fund as a med student and I think its now worth ~20$ after 10+ years.

There is no pension for physicians.

Agree with both points.

My wife's practice was here in Calgary. Her practice and call group delivered about 1000 babies per year. All family docs.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by heep223

Plus he's wrong. AIMCO manages the public pension funds in Alberta and they do a terrific job. Maybe he pulled the 2011 return and used it to suit his argument? Quick google search for the last 5 years of returns (net of fees):

2015: 9.1%
2014: 9.9%
2013: 12.5%
2012: 10.2%
2011: 4.8%

Sorry when I was referring to the return I meant the amount a teacher receives in pension pay not the market returns. That was my miscommunication. The fund manager does a wonderful job. However, when a teacher retires they only receive a part of their pay and that amount comes to ~4% of the capital they have in the fund. I agree that as teachers live longer they pull more from it. However, with the capital amount they have in the fund it will easily provide the small amount they pull from it as a pension while leaving (take 2015 data you provided) 5.1% staying in the fund. So the capital that teacher was responsible for will easily support them through their retirement.

Not an adviser.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Police officers are all undertrained trigger-happy jack-booted thugs of the gubbermint/system...

You're thinking of the United States.

[V]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the consensus rate of return for people receiving these pensions is 4% in perpetuity (well, until they and their spouse is dead, at least).

So you have a low risk-free rate of return, and an inheritance issue on one hand, and security on the other hand. What else fits into that equation? Maybe a good question for Slava's forum.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Police officers are all undertrained trigger-happy jack-booted thugs of the gubbermint/system...

911 operators.....now those guys are real jerks.

[IliketoPuck]

It is with some reluctance that I am wading back into this thread.

To be explicitly clear, this post is about my personal experience as the spouse of a school teacher, and the perspective I have gained through years of watching my spouse’s successes and struggles. It is not a short post.

For additional clarity, so that you all understand that I know what hard work truly means – I am a former banker who worked 14+ hour days, while studying for the CFA charter and raising a young family. I know what it feels like to get home at 10pm, not having seen my daughter for two weeks while living in the same house as her, studying until 2am, only to have to be back at the office for 6am. I know the feeling of bone crushing exhaustion (both mentally and physically) that comes from working to an extreme. I can identify hard work when I see it.

For even further clarity, my spouse is highly educated and left a higher paying job in the private sector to go back to school to become a teacher. Why? To attempt to make a difference in society. Your society.

Teaching is a draining job, but it is by no means unique in this regard. My spouse works hard and cares about each student and their success. My spouse works in an area of the city where the cultural demographics are dominated by recent immigration, low incomes, poverty, crime, broken homes. At times, my spouse is not simply a teacher. My spouse is a lifeline to these families, and one of the only sources of stability and consistency in their lives. My spouse deals with kids that come to school hungry, have FASD, have multiple behavioral issues, and have parents that come to interviews drunk, or high, or both. My spouse has had children bring knives and other weapons into the classroom, and has had parents physically and verbally assault staff members. A week where the police are not at the school is considered an achievement.

Leaving work at school is impossible for my spouse. There are not enough hours in the day to accomplish the required academic preparation (lesson plans, etc.), myriad administration requirements, and deal with parents and problem children. My spouse leaves the house before I do every morning, is at school 90 minutes before the children arrive, and stays 90 minutes or more after they leave. During the week my spouse takes a hurried dinner while I put the kids to bed, and then works until 10-11pm. There is no extra pay for the uncounted hours of overtime, no annual bonus, no 18 holes on a Friday with the clients, no paid client lunches, no expense write offs. Professional development days (a favorite gripe of some posters) are full work days to try to desperately catch up on work, or to deal with whatever new administrative requirement has been introduced.

And through this all, my spouse attempts to give these kids a chance at rising out of a cycle of despair, crime, and poverty, despite the odds stacked firmly against them. I have personally funded (after tax, out of my own pocket) several thousand dollars of school supplies and educational equipment. Do I get a credit from the government for it? No. I do this in addition to the 40% tax burden I already bear. Why? It’s the right thing to do. It hopefully gives the kids a better chance (they need everything they can get), and because funding for even basic school supplies in our province is sorely lacking.

Why am I telling you this? I’m telling you this because it goes hand in hand with the letter that set off this most recent, and predictable, tirade towards teachers. It is getting really tired, folks.

The letter is completely understandable to me as a spouse of a teacher. Some of you interpret the letter as “woe is me.” I would encourage you to read the title of the article again, before weighing in with your prognostications on all teacher’s work ethic, level of pay, benefits, and pensions. The article is titled “an open letter to the spouse of a teacher.” It is not titled “I think I work harder than a doctor, or a fireman, or a policeman, or an engineer.” It is not titled “my compensation is not fair, I take summer vacation for granted, or I don’t value being a teacher.” It is not titled “I value my contributions to society higher than other vocations.”

It is titled “an open letter to the spouse of a teacher.” Are the challenges faced as a spouse of a teacher different than those of any other profession? In certain areas, yes. In certain areas, no. I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt that my spouse works as hard as I did while I was a banker. Be grateful if your kids ever have my spouse as their teacher.

The writer is asking for support from her spouse. She is asking for understanding. She is attempting to reassure her spouse that she has not forgotten their marriage, the value of their life together, the importance of being present for her family. How that can be construed, as one poster elegantly put it, as “look at me, I’m a special snowflake” is beyond me.

A quote to sum this nicely: “Any fool can criticize, complain, and condemn – and most fools do. It takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving” – Dale Carnegie.

Supporting my spouse is what I signed up for when I signed on the dotted line. But I would be lying to you if I said it isn’t draining, or challenging. There are often times when I wish my spouse would quit teaching, and go back to the private sector. We’d certainly be better off in many respects, both financially and mentally. As such, I appreciate the content of the open letter, and empathize with the writer’s spouse. I’m sure the letter only scratches the surface of the struggles they are having. The number of times I’ve had to put the pieces back together, in the last year alone, are too numerous to count.

And therein lies my major issue with this thread, and all of its previous iterations. It becomes circular argumentation in its most basic form. Example: “Teachers get summers off. Everyone should have to work full time. Therefore, since they get summers off, they don’t work as much or as hard as the rest of us. They should get paid less. It is our duty as taxpayers to malign them for being overpaid.”

Posters muse, why is it that teachers are so vocal about defending how hard they work? The answer is because no other profession is exposed to such pure vitriol as teachers. None. A simple article from a teacher to her spouse spawns half a dozen pages of the same crap generalizations that have been rehashed in numerous other threads. To write an open letter to one’s spouse is courageous, and should be applauded. Instead, it is seen as another opportunity to pile on with the same tired points.

The value of education to our province, and its role in our continued prosperity is sorely underappreciated.

Before you criticize my biases, I offer you this:

As an expert in the finance field, working in the private sector, I agree that public pensions are an issue. However, pensions in particular are not unique issues to teachers. They are prevalent throughout the public sector. How they are addressed, on aggregate, as our population demographics shift will be vitally important to the country. So instead of simply railing on teachers, because it is convenient, let’s start talking about how to address the whole issue of defined benefit pension plans for entire public sector. Let’s talk about how to make the entire public system more viable and more efficient.

Furthermore I completely agree that a union protecting all members makes it difficult to get rid of poor performers. However, once again, this is not a situation unique to teachers. Let’s talk about how to improve employee accountability in union settings.

I also agree that there are inefficiencies in the public system that need to be corrected. Let’s talk about how we can improve from the top down. Every dollar we save on bureaucracy is a dollar that improves front line services.

However, I vehemently disagree with the majority of the posters in this thread who make sweeping generalizations about teachers. Including (and most insulting to me) their work ethic. I challenge many of you to overcome your own biases. It does nothing to further the discussion and only promotes further antagonism.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

Sorry when I was referring to the return I meant the amount a teacher receives in pension pay not the market returns. That was my miscommunication. The fund manager does a wonderful job. However, when a teacher retires they only receive a part of their pay and that amount comes to ~4% of the capital they have in the fund. I agree that as teachers live longer they pull more from it. However, with the capital amount they have in the fund it will easily provide the small amount they pull from it as a pension while leaving (take 2015 data you provided) 5.1% staying in the fund. So the capital that teacher was responsible for will easily support them through their retirement.

Not an adviser.

Sort of. That capital amount also includes all of the employer contributions from over the years, so teachers certainly do get out more than they put in themselves.

That said, I do think teacher contribution rates are often forgotten in discussions regarding their pension. They put in about 12-13% of their gross income into it over a 30-35 year career which amounts to a pretty decent chunk of change. So the pension is generous, but so are their contributions. Not sure of the numbers myself, but I'd be curious to see how someone who contributed that amount to an RRSP over their entire career would fare.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

Here you are simply incorrect. The pension that an average teacher gets will never come close to the true value of what they put into it. I recommend all teachers pull their pensions when they can and invest it for themselves. The return on the money the teacher has put in 30 years down the line is only 4% however any regular investor can achieve at least 6% return. This also allows the capital to remain in your hands and become an inheritable asset. If you simply collect the pension you would have to live a minimum 20 years just to get the capital back you have put into the fund not accounting for the compound growth now for 50 years. This is why teacher pensions plans get astronomically large, the teachers actually don't get back what they put into it and the capital these funds have grows exponentially.

This is why when you go to any mall in Calgary you are actually supporting the Ontario Teacher's retirement fund. They can afford to own Cadillac Fairview and at one time the Maple Leafs and Rogers Centre.

I'm a financial advisor married to a retired teacher. This is bad advice.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by V

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the consensus rate of return for people receiving these pensions is 4% in perpetuity (well, until they and their spouse is dead, at least).

So you have a low risk-free rate of return, and an inheritance issue on one hand, and security on the other hand. What else fits into that equation? Maybe a good question for Slava's forum.

Well one of the major issues with just "pulling the money out and doing it yourself" is the tax issue, but not just because its registered money. So you can move a chunk from a pension plan to a LIRA (locked in retirement account), but not all. So essentially what happens with large pensions is that move s chunk, but a significant amount is going to come to the person as cash, which is fully taxable all in one year.

Another factor and not insignificant consideration is that DB plans in general have benefits plans attached to them. So the costs of health, dental and of course medications remains in place as these people age and generally require them more and more.

Those are two quick examples where you really want to think these things through before you base this entirely on how much you put in and what you get out. Can it work to your advantage to take the commuted value and do it on your own? Absolutely, and I have many clients where we have done this from their pensions for various reasons. All my point is, is to be careful and weight the pros and cons. There are reasons that employees everywhere want these plans though, and why financial institutions have tried so hard to equivocate them for retail investors.

[corporatejay]

There's a reason you can't get a DB pension in the private sector anymore. It's an amazing deal. Guaranteed income for the rest of your life? Yes please.

[Enoch Root]

Pulling your money out of a DB pension is essentially betting that you won't survive to life-expectancy.

And even if you win, you'r dead.