Teachers work "really hard'.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the layoffs in the oil patch thread rips office oil and gas workers pretty good some days. Apparently we all are lazy and overpaid who drink all day and cash bonus checks who got what we deserve

Really? I read that thread every time it pops up and I haven't seen much of that at all. It's at least 99% news, sympathy and encouragement for those who have been laid off, and job openings. As it obviously should be.

I wonder what would happen if there were a "layoffs in the teacher ranks" thread. Just a hunch, but I think it might be variations on the theme of "it's about time".

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don't really know of any teachers who are the first ones to start whining about our jobs, or exclaiming that we're somehow special, but we don't work any less hard than anyone else. Yet, there is this thread specifically dedicated to whether or not teachers do, in fact, work hard... started by and mostly participated in by non-teachers.

Of course teachers work less hard than any other professional. They get three months off a year, work 3/4 of a day and get multiple breaks throughout the day (lunch, spares, recess, etc.). On top of that, they work a short career with insane life-long benefits and a pension that pays out more than they put in.

I definitely agree with you that teachers don't complain much, though. I have a lot of teacher friends and family and they absolutely know the abnormally sweet life gig they have. It's not like they don't notice they're the only ones in the group with the entire summer off, every Christmas off, Easter off and a random spring week off while the rest of us are working. They also brag about getting home before rush hour so they're aware their day is short, too.

I think it's the union that makes a lot of noise. It's always asking for more. And to get more, it needs to make the case to the public that teachers currently have a raw deal, which is of course ridiculous. But that pisses off taxpayers, as it should. And some teachers believe their own union's propaganda, which is really annoying, but I honestly don't encounter any of those in real life. Just see them yelling on the news during strikes or whatever.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Of course teachers work less hard than any other professional. They get three months off a year, work 3/4 of a day and get multiple breaks throughout the day (lunch, spares, recess, etc.).

Well, people who work in offices only put in an hour or two of actual work a day in between surfing the net, long lunches, and meetings, so I think it evens out.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Of course teachers work less hard than any other professional. They get three months off a year, work 3/4 of a day and get multiple breaks throughout the day (lunch, spares, recess, etc.). On top of that, they work a short career with insane life-long benefits and a pension that pays out more than they put in.

I definitely agree with you that teachers don't complain much, though. I have a lot of teacher friends and family and they absolutely know the abnormally sweet life gig they have. It's not like they don't notice they're the only ones in the group with the entire summer off, every Christmas off, Easter off and a random spring week off while the rest of us are working. They also brag about getting home before rush hour so they're aware their day is short, too.

I think it's the union that makes a lot of noise. It's always asking for more. And to get more, it needs to make the case to the public that teachers currently have a raw deal, which is of course ridiculous. But that pisses off taxpayers, as it should. And some teachers believe their own union's propaganda, which is really annoying, but I honestly don't encounter any of those in real life. Just see them yelling on the news during strikes or whatever.

I'm curious...what do you do? If it's such a sweet gig why aren't you teaching?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

I'm curious...what do you do? If it's such a sweet gig why aren't you teaching?

By the time I realized how amazing teaching was I figured it was too late to get my teaching certificate. Around 27 or 28 it really dawned on me that the typical corporate route would take thousands of more hours and hundreds of days of my personal time over my lifetime versus my teacher friends. And as a taxpayer, I'd be one of the ones footing the bill for this luxurious lifestyle. Also, the salaries, benefits and job security teachers receive are well above the average I've come across in the private sector.

In retrospect, I don't think I was too old to go back. I already had a degree, so it really only would have been two years of school. My life already had a momentum that I didn't want to stop (mortgage, etc.) so I didn't worry much about it.

Once you have kids, though (for me at 29), it becomes increasingly obvious just how good teaching is. Your schedule is 100% in sync with a child's. My teacher friends have none of the childcare woes (and accompanying guilt) my wife and I have with arranging childcare for all of the holidays kids/teachers have. The cost is not small, either.

At 39 it is certainly too late now. Aside from the great career teachers enjoy during their working years, the real benefit is that killer pension. The opportunity cost is too high to go back to school now and I'd have to work too long and be too old to maximize the value of the pension, so it wouldn't make sense.

What do I do? My first five years out of university I worked for a public company in corporate communications. During that time I had two weeks off per year. The holidays I had during my combined first five years as a professional were less than every teacher gets in their first year of teaching. And I had to work one full year before I earned any vacation time at all, so actually the first year I didn't have any time off.

That may seem like BS to some of you guys that entered the job market during Calgary's recent booms, but when it is an employer's market, young people are just thankful to have a decent job, which I was, and you do not get showered with benefits like some people have experienced more recently. Employers give the minimum holiday amounts, and in Alberta that is two weeks vacation after your first full year of employment. Thousands of Albertans receive just that.

[AltaGuy]

Still wondering why we're really so concerned with teachers when family doctors appear to do almost nothing and are paid three times the amount.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Sliver

By the time I realized how amazing teaching was I figured it was too late to get my teaching certificate. Around 27 or 28 it really dawned on me that the typical corporate route would take thousands of more hours and hundreds of days of my personal time over my lifetime versus my teacher friends. And as a taxpayer, I'd be one of the ones footing the bill for this luxurious lifestyle. Also, the salaries, benefits and job security teachers receive are well above the average I've come across in the private sector.

In retrospect, I don't think I was too old to go back. I already had a degree, so it really only would have been two years of school. My life already had a momentum that I didn't want to stop (mortgage, etc.) so I didn't worry much about it.

Once you have kids, though (for me at 29), it becomes increasingly obvious just how good teaching is. Your schedule is 100% in sync with a child's. My teacher friends have none of the childcare woes (and accompanying guilt) my wife and I have with arranging childcare for all of the holidays kids/teachers have. The cost is not small, either.

At 39 it is certainly too late now. Aside from the great career teachers enjoy during their working years, the real benefit is that killer pension. The opportunity cost is too high to go back to school now and I'd have to work too long and be too old to maximize the value of the pension, so it wouldn't make sense.

What do I do? My first five years out of university I worked for a public company in corporate communications. During that time I had two weeks off per year. The holidays I had during my combined first five years as a professional were less than every teacher gets in their first year of teaching. And I had to work one full year before I earned any vacation time at all, so actually the first year I didn't have any time off.

That may seem like BS to some of you guys that entered the job market during Calgary's recent booms, but when it is an employer's market, young people are just thankful to have a decent job, which I was, and you do not get showered with benefits like some people have experienced more recently. Employers give the minimum holiday amounts, and in Alberta that is two weeks vacation after your first full year of employment. Thousands of Albertans receive just that.

That was pretty evasive. You never did answer what you do, just vaguely what you did when you first entered the workforce. What do you do now? Not only the industry, but what kind of duties do you perform during your workday. What hours do you work? What is the pay? I would like to know so that I can avoid such a job, as it is so much harder to do and so poorly compensated for.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by Sliver

On top of that, they work a short career with insane life-long benefits and a pension that pays out more than they put in.

Here you are simply incorrect. The pension that an average teacher gets will never come close to the true value of what they put into it. I recommend all teachers pull their pensions when they can and invest it for themselves. The return on the money the teacher has put in 30 years down the line is only 4% however any regular investor can achieve at least 6% return. This also allows the capital to remain in your hands and become an inheritable asset. If you simply collect the pension you would have to live a minimum 20 years just to get the capital back you have put into the fund not accounting for the compound growth now for 50 years. This is why teacher pensions plans get astronomically large, the teachers actually don't get back what they put into it and the capital these funds have grows exponentially.

This is why when you go to any mall in Calgary you are actually supporting the Ontario Teacher's retirement fund. They can afford to own Cadillac Fairview and at one time the Maple Leafs and Rogers Centre.

[taco.vidal]

He's an important bossman, dont you know?

Originally Posted by John Doe

That was pretty evasive. You never did answer what you do, just vaguely what you did when you first entered the workforce. What do you do now? Not only the industry, but what kind of duties do you perform during your workday. What hours do you work? What is the pay? I would like to know so that I can avoid such a job, as it is so much harder to do and so poorly compensated for.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Still wondering why we're really so concerned with teachers when family doctors appear to do almost nothing and are paid three times the amount.

I won't comment on the pay of Family Doctors, however, if you see them as doing nothing, you are most likely a person with few medical concerns and visit them rarely.

To people like you, they do very little, but still support the system by helping catch potential costly concerns early.

To a great majority of people... lets say a majority applies to people 45 and up just from talking to Doctors (so take that as you will), they deal with complex medical problems stacked and stacked upon each other.

Remove/lower family doctors, equal more expensive ER visits and specialists visits.

From my uneducated point of view, a day very soon may come when a Family Doctor's job is replaced or offset by a complex computer, however, we are not there yet.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Really? I read that thread every time it pops up and I haven't seen much of that at all. It's at least 99% news, sympathy and encouragement for those who have been laid off, and job openings. As it obviously should be.

I wonder what would happen if there were a "layoffs in the teacher ranks" thread. Just a hunch, but I think it might be variations on the theme of "it's about time".

You miss the parts then on how O+G people deserved it. And how 80% of them are terrible and it's just dat trimming. And how it's the correct decision not to hire them for other industry as all of them will go crawling back. I agree most of it is positive but it certainly occurs and people certainly criticize other progressions. Go start a chiropractor thread and see how it goes. The point being that other professions are criticized as well and the woe is me teacher attitude that the blog portrayed is ridiculous. It just shows a complete lack of understanding of other jobs in the Private sector, the volunteer work others do and the overtime and stress others put in.

There also won't be a layoffs in the teacher thread as job security there is pretty secure. One of the problems people have is that there is no way to remove bad teachers and replace them with young enthusiastic teachers.

To me you fix a lot of the education system by empowering teachers to teach, evaluating them properly, increasing the spread between the highest and lowest paid and laying off the bottom 5% of performers every 5 years or so.

Good teachers are amazing. Okay teachers get the job done, bad teachers can destroy a love of learning for some students.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by John Doe

That was pretty evasive. You never did answer what you do, just vaguely what you did when you first entered the workforce. What do you do now? Not only the industry, but what kind of duties do you perform during your workday. What hours do you work? What is the pay? I would like to know so that I can avoid such a job, as it is so much harder to do and so poorly compensated for.

I own a small business. Like every other small business owner I know, there is never really a vacation in the way a teacher would think of a vacation. I probably take about four weeks off per year. Never more than one week consecutively and every single time I'm "on vacation" I'm handling phone calls, emails and coming into the office. That probably sounds like whining, but it's just the facts. Every small business owner will tell you the same with few exceptions.

Is the compensation better? I can have good months/years and bad months/years. It fluctuates. I'd say per hour - even factoring in my best years - I make far less than a teacher. And I don't get a guaranteed pension, any benefits, any paid sick days (where somebody comes in to do my job for me while I'm away), etc. I think on a per-hour basis, a very small percentage of people in our province make what a teacher makes.

I was just talking with my kids over breakfast about what they want to be. They both want to be teachers and we're very encouraging of this. It's a great profession with an ideal mix of compensation, benefits, low hours, job security and a pension. Personally, I've never come across a better vocation that's attainable to pretty much anybody. I mean, there are outliers that make more and work less, but they're not positions that everybody can have.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Of course teachers work less hard than any other professional. They get three months off a year, work 3/4 of a day and get multiple breaks throughout the day (lunch, spares, recess, etc.). On top of that, they work a short career with insane life-long benefits and a pension that pays out more than they put in.

Salaries aren't out of line (though they're higher than almost anywhere else in the world), but I don't see a lot of taxpayers complaining about it.

The time off is of course extorted through collective bargaining, and is an example of how when the interests of teachers, parents, and students are on conflict, it's almost always teachers who win out. My kids have three fewer school days than last year, which in turn had three fewer than the year before. Taking the entire summer off is bad for learning. That is no longer seriously disputed anywhere, and North America is about the only place in the world where schools still take all summer off. And yet here we are.

The biggest issue, though, is the early retirements. Just as it is evident to most people how much time teachers really get off until they have kids, it won't be evident to most people how much earlier teachers (and police, etc.) retire than workers in the private sector until we're all in our 60s. When workers in the private sector are grinding out their last year or two of employment at 65 or 67, it won't pass their notice that their teacher friends have been retired for a decade or more already.

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think it's the union that makes a lot of noise. It's always asking for more. And to get more, it needs to make the case to the public that teachers currently have a raw deal, which is of course ridiculous. But that pisses off taxpayers, as it should. And some teachers believe their own union's propaganda, which is really annoying, but I honestly don't encounter any of those in real life. Just see them yelling on the news during strikes or whatever.

I don't know anyone who denigrates the job of teaching, which is difficult and important. What people resent is the concessions teachers have achieved through unions (and ultimately the threat of striking), concessions that often come at the expense of students, parents, and taxpayers. When unions help underpaid working-class people achieve a middle-class livelihood, they tend to get public sympathy. When they help already middle-class people achieve a lifestyle much better than most other middle-class taxpayers, they inspire resentment.

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Still wondering why we're really so concerned with teachers when family doctors appear to do almost nothing and are paid three times the amount.

Given the private medical system in the U.S., we have a market comparable. In recent memory, doctors have left Canada for the American system, which suggests doctors are not overpaid.

How many teachers leave the public system to go teach in private schools? Precious few. Given that, along with the fact there are far more people graduating with teaching degrees than there are teaching jobs, suggests teachers are paid above what an open market would value them at.

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

Here you are simply incorrect. The pension that an average teacher gets will never come close to the true value of what they put into it. I recommend all teachers pull their pensions when they can and invest it for themselves. The return on the money the teacher has put in 30 years down the line is only 4% however any regular investor can achieve at least 6% return. This also allows the capital to remain in your hands and become an inheritable asset. If you simply collect the pension you would have to live a minimum 20 years just to get the capital back you have put into the fund not accounting for the compound growth now for 50 years. This is why teacher pensions plans get astronomically large, the teachers actually don't get back what they put into it and the capital these funds have grows exponentially.

That may have been true in the past, but I have a hard time believing it's true today. Lifespans are going up, and given they tend to be healthier (and more female) than the population at large, the life expectancy of teachers is going up dramatically. A teacher entering the profession today is projected to have a life expectancy of over 90. And that teacher probably expects to retire at 56. The guy in charge of managing the Ontario Teachers Pension fund has raised alarm bells over the issue, saying a system where teachers earn a pension for longer than they work is not viable.

And of course, teachers' pensions are part of collective bargaining, and in a sense protected by the government. Shortfalls? Bring it up on the next negotiations and the public purse will come to the rescue.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The biggest issue, though, is the early retirements. Just as it is evident to most people how much time teachers really get off until they have kids, it won't be evident to most people how much earlier teachers (and police, etc.) retire than workers in the private sector until we're all in our 60s. When workers in the private sector are grinding out their last year or two of employment at 65 or 67, it won't pass their notice that their teacher friends have been retired for a decade or more already.

Yeah, this is huge and gets glossed over in these discussions every single time. I always say teachers work a short day, a short year and a short career. And the best part of being a teacher is the killer pension. The pension is so amazing because it kicks in sooooooooo young, which ties back into the short career thing.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Still wondering why we're really so concerned with teachers when family doctors appear to do almost nothing and are paid three times the amount.

Total straw man but three comments:

I typically hear this comment from overly self entitled patients who can't recognize healthcare is a limited resource.

Some GPs are bad, but its stupid to use them as a marker of financial compensation. If you truly think you've got a legitimate complaint, bring it up with the college who could actually do something.

Some GPs do make less than teachers, and there is no pension after retirement.

[driveway]

The career teachers I know tend to retire between 60 and 70 years old. I am largely unfamiliar with this early retirement trend.

However, I teach internationally, so I'm really out of the loop when it comes to the public/Alberta/Union-related discussions.

[polak]

Doctors are paid well because it's insanely difficult to become a doctor.

A teaching degree in comparison, is simple. I don't mean to slight teachers, but anyone inclined to do so can finish that degree (not saying everyone can teach, but the degree itself is nothing crazy and you can take another easy degree and get even more pay).

[heep223]

I am friends with multiple teachers and you would have an extremely difficult time convincing me that they don't have it really, really good. Which is totally fine. They play an extremely important role in our society.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

Here you are simply incorrect. The pension that an average teacher gets will never come close to the true value of what they put into it. I recommend all teachers pull their pensions when they can and invest it for themselves. The return on the money the teacher has put in 30 years down the line is only 4% however any regular investor can achieve at least 6% return. This also allows the capital to remain in your hands and become an inheritable asset. If you simply collect the pension you would have to live a minimum 20 years just to get the capital back you have put into the fund not accounting for the compound growth now for 50 years. This is why teacher pensions plans get astronomically large, the teachers actually don't get back what they put into it and the capital these funds have grows exponentially.

This is why when you go to any mall in Calgary you are actually supporting the Ontario Teacher's retirement fund. They can afford to own Cadillac Fairview and at one time the Maple Leafs and Rogers Centre.

Are you an advisor? That is super dangerous advice and certainly doesn't apply to every scenario. I don't know who you're advising or recommending this to, but they hopefully consider a second opinion because there is a lot more to consider than just rate of return.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Sliver

By the time I realized how amazing teaching was I figured it was too late to get my teaching certificate.

So you weren't smart enough to be a teacher? I mean, most people realize that teachers have summer off sometime in grade 2.

Originally Posted by GGG

And how it's the correct decision not to hire them for other industry as all of them will go crawling back.

Sorry GGG but this is just being a victim. No one was advocating that O&G are scum, just providing reasoning for why companies may be hesitant to hire employees from that sector.