The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[JiriHrdina]

Would it be possible to disagree without telling people there heads are buried? I think that is one of the most dismissive and arrogant things someone can say.
If anyone is refusing to listen to a counter POV in this thread it is TAO.

[Karl]

Holy crap Blue Jays. Get your backbone together. Start hitting baseballs again.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Karl

Holy crap Blue Jays. Get your backbone together. Start hitting baseballs again.

It's not just hitting. The whole package is off the rails. Starting pitching, bullpen, defense as well.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The fact that the Jays invested heavily in Shapiro and Atkins (both with large experience managing small market teams), did next to nothing in the past off-season other than sign a few short term deals and didn't even negotiate with their two stars, fired their director of scounting, and are now investing heavily in another guy as VP of baseball operations makes it clear as day to anyone who doesn't want to bury their head in the sand as to what exactly is going to happen starting next year.

Maybe it's what's needed, but they are 100% cutting payroll and every single sign in the universe is pointing towards without even considering Rogers history of cheapness over the past 20 years as an owner.

Big market teams hire small market GMs all the time - it's actually pretty common for anyone paying attention. The Dodgers poached Andrew Freidman from the Rays for the exact same role. And has anyone ever heard of a team in any sport poaching small market management because they want to downgrade to a small market team and need someone with experience doing that? It's insane. Why exactly is Shapiro leaving Cleveland in a lateral move in this ridiculous scenario? Shapiro was hired because he's a progressive executive and the Jays were run by a dinosaur who didn't use email.

The off-season stuff has been beaten to death. You seem like you'd be happier with one of the long term, big money deals signed this off-season when essentially all of those players are having awful years (in contracts where you are overpaying for immediate production) instead of Happ and Estrada who've been very productive.

Firing their director of scouting has absolutely nothing to do with payroll.

Investing heavily in Ben Cherington is somehow a sign payroll is going to decrease? I don't know where to even begin with that. You literally take any piece of information and somehow twist it to feed your ridiculous confirmation bias against Rogers. Please explain to me why Cherington, a guy who would easily be a top candidate for GM for a bunch of small market teams, is signing with Toronto knowing that ownership is going to slash the budget and they are going to operate as a small market team against the Yankees and Red Sox (especially given their young talent in addition to monstrous resources). It makes no logical sense, but somehow that's you spin things.

[ClubFlames]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

It's not just hitting. The whole package is off the rails. Starting pitching, bullpen, defense as well.

Also the ownership.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

And why can't I had those guys' salaries in? JayP and others like him sure liked to add Price, Revere, Tulo, and Hawkins half-year salary to their argument last year that the Jays were not cheap and they spent more in 2015 than they did in 2014.

You are including full year salaries for all those additions when in reality the Jays are paying prorated portions of those salaries. Then you set the goalposts so Rogers is apparently cheap if they don't spend salary equal to the full salaries even though they aren't actually spending that this season.

If you want to play that game, then Rogers clearly isn't that cheap because they added $23 million in salary for those guys alone (plus Liriano and Upton) this season. You can't have it both ways.

[Caged Great]

The Jays made the playoffs mainly due to the top end performances of Donaldson + Jose + Edwin and quality secondary performances throughout the lineup. Jose has fallen off the cliff and the quality of the secondary players has diminished significantly.

Unless that changes this week, they are not going to make the playoffs. They will then be forced to decide what they need to do to alter things so their entire lineup is dangerous, unlike this year where there has been a few black holes at the end of the order. Or they will have one playoff appearance to their credit and will have to rebuild again.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JayP

Big market teams hire small market GMs all the time - it's actually pretty common for anyone paying attention. The Dodgers poached Andrew Freidman from the Rays for the exact same role. And has anyone ever heard of a team in any sport poaching small market management because they want to downgrade to a small market team and need someone with experience doing that? It's insane. Why exactly is Shapiro leaving Cleveland in a lateral move in this ridiculous scenario? Shapiro was hired because he's a progressive executive and the Jays were run by a dinosaur who didn't use email.

The off-season stuff has been beaten to death. You seem like you'd be happier with one of the long term, big money deals signed this off-season when essentially all of those players are having awful years (in contracts where you are overpaying for immediate production) instead of Happ and Estrada who've been very productive.

Firing their director of scouting has absolutely nothing to do with payroll.

Investing heavily in Ben Cherington is somehow a sign payroll is going to decrease? I don't know where to even begin with that. You literally take any piece of information and somehow twist it to feed your ridiculous confirmation bias against Rogers. Please explain to me why Cherington, a guy who would easily be a top candidate for GM for a bunch of small market teams, is signing with Toronto knowing that ownership is going to slash the budget and they are going to operate as a small market team against the Yankees and Red Sox (especially given their young talent in addition to monstrous resources). It makes no logical sense, but somehow that's you spin things.

This team is headed towards a full on rebuild. They brought in Atkins and Shapiro who both have experience dealing and results dealing with budgets and getting blood out of stones. They are going to be paying big money to a guy like Cherington to help them to what he did in Boston, which is a good idea, but like you said he could have likely had a GM deal with a small market team. The Jays will be paying him like a GM despite, only being VP of baseball operations. The Jays aren't the Dodgers, they have don't have the budget. The Dodgers can have the best front office in baseball and still spend a bunch on the field. The Jays can't and won't do both. If they are investing big money in their front office and scouting, it's an attempt to build a good team without spending as much. I don't have a problem with this approach either, so long as they actually stick to it, which they have shown over the past 20 years they are unwilling to do.

The past two years was a perfect time for the Jays to add some money to the roster on the short term to take it to the next level why the Red Sox and Yankees were in rebuild mold and not willing to break the bank. Instead though, they basically refused to move on budget, and basically only half went in on it this year. You can't half go in on it, you have to be all the way in or not.

The Jays banked on a huge offence to win them the division this year because offence is cheaper to put on the field than adding pitching. The offence didn't live up to expectations for the first half of the year, but the pitching was light years ahead of where it should have been. Now that the pitching is back to being normal, we see the complete crap show we are seeing now with the constant stream of AL East opponents.


I can point out multiple signs that this team will be gradually reducing payroll over the next few years. Can you point out any signs they aren't? I don't think you can, and taking on Liriano contract does not backup your position. In fact, it actually backs mine. Instead of adding a sure thing, they banked on Martin being able to turn Liriano around and they only had 1 more year left on his contract so that he can exit when the exile of the other expiring contracts is underway.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JayP

You are including full year salaries for all those additions when in reality the Jays are paying prorated portions of those salaries. Then you set the goalposts so Rogers is apparently cheap if they don't spend salary equal to the full salaries even though they aren't actually spending that this season.

If you want to play that game, then Rogers clearly isn't that cheap because they added $23 million in salary for those guys alone (plus Liriano and Upton) this season. You can't have it both ways.

How did Rogers add anything related to Upton? That's foolishness. SD is paying his entire salary. If they weren't, Rogers wouldn't have allowed the Jays to add anyone.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Jays made the playoffs mainly due to the top end performances of Donaldson + Jose + Edwin and quality secondary performances throughout the lineup. Jose has fallen off the cliff and the quality of the secondary players has diminished significantly.

Unless that changes this week, they are not going to make the playoffs. They will then be forced to decide what they need to do to alter things so their entire lineup is dangerous, unlike this year where there has been a few black holes at the end of the order. Or they will have one playoff appearance to their credit and will have to rebuild again.

The Jays made the playoffs last year because they had a record pacing offence, got the players all pumped up when they added Price and Tulo which gave them some swagger, and Boston and New York were nowhere to be seen.

I firmly believe and have said since last winter, the minute they didn't even offer Price a contract and decided they wouldn't negotiate with Edwin and Bautista, all that swagger and pride went out the window and this would be a different team. Jays players went from believing in themselves on the same level as the elite, to being just another team again and back to have an "us versus management" mentality.

I'm not going to debate the merits of Price's contract, but I think it's pretty hard to debate that him not being on this team or the Jays bnot going out and getting someone to replace him didn't have an affect on this team's mentality on the field. They lost their fight. They never really had any fight all year despite the enhanced record due to the starting pitching.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Jays made the playoffs last year because they had a record pacing offence, got the players all pumped up when they added Price and Tulo which gave them some swagger, and Boston and New York were nowhere to be seen.

I firmly believe and have said since last winter, the minute they didn't even offer Price a contract and decided they wouldn't negotiate with Edwin and Bautista, all that swagger and pride went out the window and this would be a different team. Jays players went from believing in themselves on the same level as the elite, to being just another team again and back to have an "us versus management" mentality.

I'm not going to debate the merits of Price's contract, but I think it's pretty hard to debate that him not being on this team or the Jays bnot going out and getting someone to replace him didn't have an affect on this team's mentality on the field. They lost their fight. They never really had any fight all year despite the enhanced record due to the starting pitching.

Price's contract would have been unwise, but you are correct that the team has fallen flat entirely. They absolutely need to replace Jose and Edwin with two players that are equivalently talented to what they produced last season, and add a player or two in other areas as well including the pen. The Jays were hurt by Sanchez not being as good of an 8th inning guy, plus Cecil disappearing. They need a good 8th inning guy, and an above average 7th inning guy as well.

They have a lot of work to do.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

This team is headed towards a full on rebuild. They brought in Atkins and Shapiro who both have experience dealing and results dealing with budgets and getting blood out of stones. They are going to be paying big money to a guy like Cherington to help them to what he did in Boston, which is a good idea, but like you said he could have likely had a GM deal with a small market team. The Jays will be paying him like a GM despite, only being VP of baseball operations. The Jays aren't the Dodgers, they have don't have the budget. The Dodgers can have the best front office in baseball and still spend a bunch on the field. The Jays can't and won't do both. If they are investing big money in their front office and scouting, it's an attempt to build a good team without spending as much. I don't have a problem with this approach either, so long as they actually stick to it, which they have shown over the past 20 years they are unwilling to do.

This might make sense if you only look at it from the Jays perspective, but absolutely falls apart when you look at it in reality. Quit ignoring the key statements in my post:

1) Why is Shapiro uprooting his family and moving to Toronto for a lateral job as president of a low budget team?

2) Why is Ben Cherington hiring on with the Jays as the VP of baseball operations for a low budget team when he could be the president or GM of another low budget team or VP of a high budget team pretty easily? Why is he choosing an inferior job with the Jays?

The past two years was a perfect time for the Jays to add some money to the roster on the short term to take it to the next level why the Red Sox and Yankees were in rebuild mold and not willing to break the bank. Instead though, they basically refused to move on budget, and basically only half went in on it this year. You can't half go in on it, you have to be all the way in or not.

How do you add money to the roster in the short term that has the impact you want? If you want impact players in free agency, you have to sign them to 7 year deals. If you want impact players via trade, you have to give up high end prospects which the Jays weren't in a position to do after last year's trade deadline.

I can point out multiple signs that this team will be gradually reducing payroll over the next few years. Can you point out any signs they aren't? I don't think you can, and taking on Liriano contract does not backup your position. In fact, it actually backs mine. Instead of adding a sure thing, they banked on Martin being able to turn Liriano around and they only had 1 more year left on his contract so that he can exit when the exist of other expiring contracts is underway.

You haven't pointed out anything. You take basic transactions like firing a director of scouting and claim that somehow means the Jays are reducing payroll. There's no basis in reality for anything you claim when you look at it from all perspectives.

Just take the Liriano trade. It's actually hilarious that you somehow convince yourself that the Jays taking on $13million next season for aging starter with a 5+ ERA is evidence the Jays are reducing payroll. The fact that they are adding payroll means they are clearly reducing payroll to you somehow. There's a reason that the small market Pirates had to attach two top 100 prospects with Liriano to get rid of his contract. This is the kind of move that big market teams do all the time, but to you it's evidence to the contrary.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How did Rogers add anything related to Upton? That's foolishness. SD is paying his entire salary. If they weren't, Rogers wouldn't have allowed the Jays to add anyone.

The Blue Jays are paying $5 million of Upton's salary.

And way to ignore the rest of my post and respond to something unrelated.

[cross16]

I won't debate the merits of the Price contract either, but I will say that if this team's "excuse" for playing like this is that they didn't re-sign David Price then you had a terrible clubhouse to begin with. I don't beleive that to be the case.

This team has been provided with everything it needs to compete for a playoff spot. A few weeks ago they were a top 5 team in baseball. Did it suddenly take until September for them to "miss" David Price and let their results suffer or let the lack of a Daivd Price affect their game?

Sometimes the answer is as simple as the players are not getting it done. When it comes to the Jays right now, I think its that simple they jsut arn't executing well. Talent is there, execution is not.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

I won't debate the merits of the Price contract either, but I will say that if this team's "excuse" for playing like this is that they didn't re-sign David Price then you had a terrible clubhouse to begin with. I don't beleive that to be the case.

This team has been provided with everything it needs to compete for a playoff spot. A few weeks ago they were a top 5 team in baseball. Did it suddenly take until September for them to "miss" David Price and let their results suffer or let the lack of a Daivd Price affect their game?

Sometimes the answer is as simple as the players are not getting it done. When it comes to the Jays right now, I think its that simple they jsut arn't executing well. Talent is there, execution is not.

How was this team provided with everything they needed to win though? How many games did they blow in the first two months because the bullpen was not adequately addressed? They basically started this season with two rookies in the starting rotation. Sure it worked out, but odds are it shouldn't have. Our starting pitching has been pretty mediocre to terrible for well over a month now.

Why are we so sure that the clubhouse isn't terrible? Last year for half a year this team played well, but this is the same core of guys that big-time underachieved for the previous 3 years.

The thing with Price was, adding him signaled to the players that everyone was all in, including management and ownership. it's a lot easier to play when you think everyone has your back. Not resigning Price or bringing in some replacements/upgrades in the summer told the players they were on their own and basically had about one year left to get it done. I'm not a professional athlete, but I think having that type of pressure would affect my performance. The game wouldn't be fun for me anymore. They've been tight all year. I think this is a big reason why.

This team didn't just start to tank in September. The offence has been struggling all year. They are all-out tanking in September because their pitching has fallen back to earth due to a heavy dose of AL East teams, and the offence never righted the ship.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JayP

The Blue Jays are paying $5 million of Upton's salary.

And way to ignore the rest of my post and respond to something unrelated.

They are taking 5 million over 1.5 years. That is basically league minimum for any veteran player in the game. Christ Smoak even makes that much. Don't act like that is the Jays taking on salary, that is a cheap way for the Jays to hedge their bets for when Bautista leaves.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How was this team provided with everything they needed to win though? How many games did they blow in the first two months because the bullpen was not adequately addressed? They basically started this season with two rookies in the starting rotation. Sure it worked out, but odds are it shouldn't have. Our starting pitching has been pretty mediocre to terrible for well over a month now.

All of the holes were address though. I don't really consider Stroman a "rookie" given he showed last year what he could do and I think the clubhouse believes in him. Remember too, Stroman was suppose to be a top 3/4 starter before he tore his ACL so I don't really agree with the notion they were banking on a rookie. If they were dissapointed in Sanchez making it in the rotation those fears should have gone away pretty quick. I don't think the players should have been dissapointined at all that Stroman and Sanchez were in the rotation.
Sure the bullpen was bad but it was addressed and with the improved bullpen the Jays worked themselves to the lead in the AL East and one of the best records in baseball until this recent slide. If things were so bad and the players didn't feel supported then why were they able to get to that level? Luck?

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Why are we so sure that the clubhouse isn't terrible? Last year for half a year this team played well, but this is the same core of guys that big-time underachieved for the previous 3 years.

I don't know that it is not. What I am saying is that if signing Price is needed to boost the team you are address the wrong problem. If its a terrible clubhouse then address that becuase the rest is a waste of time and dont' go out and sign a FA to try and cover up a bad clubhouse.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The thing with Price was, adding him signaled to the players that everyone was all in, including management and ownership. it's a lot easier to play when you think everyone has your back. Not resigning Price or bringing in some replacements/upgrades in the summer told the players they were on their own and basically had about one year left to get it done. I'm not a professional athlete, but I think having that type of pressure would affect my performance. The game wouldn't be fun for me anymore. They've been tight all year. I think this is a big reason why.

I think you are really reaching here and like I said if this is the case and the players felt that way I still think you blame the players not owernship. I get you hate everythign about Rogers and no one is going to change your mind, but that doesn't mean everything that goes wrong is their fault.

Jays have a top 10 payroll in MLB, went out an got a starter to "replace" Price in Happ, brought in more depth and traded for a former top notch closer in Storen. Not all of the moves panned out, but I really fail to see how you come to the conclusion that the players are justified in feeling that management doesn't have their back, especially when they were very active addressing holes mid season too.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

All of the holes were address though. I don't really consider Stroman a "rookie" given he showed last year what he could do and I think the clubhouse believes in him. Remember too, Stroman was suppose to be a top 3/4 starter before he tore his ACL so I don't really agree with the notion they were banking on a rookie. If they were dissapointed in Sanchez making it in the rotation those fears should have gone away pretty quick. I don't think the players should have been dissapointined at all that Stroman and Sanchez were in the rotation.
Sure the bullpen was bad but it was addressed and with the improved bullpen the Jays worked themselves to the lead in the AL East and one of the best records in baseball until this recent slide. If things were so bad and the players didn't feel supported then why were they able to get to that level? Luck?


I don't know that it is not. What I am saying is that if signing Price is needed to boost the team you are address the wrong problem. If its a terrible clubhouse then address that becuase the rest is a waste of time and dont' go out and sign a FA to try and cover up a bad clubhouse.


I think you are really reaching here and like I said if this is the case and the players felt that way I still think you blame the players not owernship. I get you hate everythign about Rogers and no one is going to change your mind, but that doesn't mean everything that goes wrong is their fault.

Jays have a top 10 payroll in MLB, went out an got a starter to "replace" Price in Happ, brought in more depth and traded for a former top notch closer in Storen. Not all of the moves panned out, but I really fail to see how you come to the conclusion that the players are justified in feeling that management doesn't have their back, especially when they were very active addressing holes mid season too.

I definitely think the players are the ones responsible here. Even if they lost the AL East, a wildcard should have at least been a forgone conclusion. I just think knowing you are on a one year time line to win and seeing a bunch of guys leave with no real replacements being has a lot more affect on a team than a lot of people are giving it credit for. These guys have looked tight all year and like they weren't having fun. Last year this team was having a lot of fun. Sure winning makes things more fun, but even when these guys were on top of the AL East, this team did not have the same feel to it at all.

You can't honestly believe getting Happ was an adequate replacement for Price can you? Happ has been oustanding, and I've been pumped about that signing from day 1, but they lost Price and Buerhle and Happ was a tier 2 or 3 free agent.

[TheAlpineOracle]

And speaking of David Price, since the trade deadline I believe he's 7-2 with an ERA of 2.99. So he's rising to the occasions when it matters the most, which is the exact opposite we are seeing in Blue Jay Land though I would admit our hitting is the biggest concern at the moment.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

this team did not have the same feel to it at all.

They don't, but IMO it never was. I don't think too many people realize what happend last year was special and likely wasn't repeatable. No different than the Flames 04 run.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

You can't honestly believe getting Happ was an adequate replacement for Price can you? Happ has been oustanding, and I've been pumped about that signing from day 1, but they lost Price and Buerhle and Happ was a tier 2 or 3 free agent.

"Replaced" in quotation for a reason. Happ filled his spot and gave them a starter that deepend out their rotation but by no means do i think they replaced the talent level.
You've brought up Price alot and the lack of a "replacement" but David Price is one of the top pitchers in baseball so i think trying to "replace" him is a bit of a fools game. Especially considering all the top FA last year signed for amounted to be some pretty crazy contracts.