1) would you feel differently if it was called the Canada Cup?
2) Team Europe idea works really well in the Ryder Cup. The concept change for that competition worked perfectly. As for team NA, they are the most interesting team in the tournament
3) when can you do it?
4) no one likes to see players drop out. Of course the '72 series missed a lot of great players due to NHL/ WHA
I see your point in everything. I figure why not give it a chance and see how seriously the players take it? I remember the Canada Cups very fondly. Granted teams weren't in the Olympics then, but I have no issue with more international hockey.
Fair.
Want to point out, i am not trying to be "prickly" just stating the opinions I have which have me not remotely as excited as I typically am for the Olympics. The hockey nut in me will still probably tune in, but my general give a bleep meter is quite low for this whole thing, compared to say, even flames pre-season games.
You do understand that the Olympics aren't this white knight bringing the games just out of kindness. They want their cut and from what I know they don't pay the NHL or their players much. The NHL and the players do it to promote the game and that's about it.
The World Cup will return money to the NHL and to the Players Association. Yeah I guess it's just another money grab but at least it goes to the people responsible for building the game and not some Irish Olympic committee big wig scalper.
That's well and fine.
So what makes the NHL so vastly superior to the NBA or Professional Soccer? These organizations are sending their best players to the Olympics without complaining about not making their dollar out of it. Not to mention these leagues have players with contracts way larger than NHL stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbsy
My issues with this tournament : 1. It's an attempt to create a national interest similar to the Olympics, without any real history or drama.
2. A tournament setup putting top hockey nations up against one another seems like a good idea I suppose but then what are the team north America and team Europe all about?!?
3. We see a lot of injuries in training camp as players who have trained one way all offseason get into full hockey stuff (pulled tweaked groin, etc). Easing these guys through a month long training camp is one thing but jumping into a tournament like thus right off the bat is another. The injury risks are not worth it for the players from the team I cheer for.
4. I think the above point has a lot to do with more and more players pulling out which also hurts the "best on best" this tournament is supposed to represent.
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Regarding the "there's no history or drama" complaint, which I think is partially valid, we also have to remember:
You have to make history. If this becomes a regular thing and manages to gain some prestige, the history will follow. You can't have history right from the start of something new (which, despite World Cups happening before, this sort of is).
So what makes the NHL so vastly superior to the NBA or Professional Soccer? These organizations are sending their best players to the Olympics without complaining about not making their dollar out of it. Not to mention these leagues have players with contracts way larger than NHL stars.
Well to be fair the NBA doesn't have to interrupt their season. And last I checked there were more players declining to go (see Olympic Basketball, Canada). As for soccer, isn't the Olympic tournament more restrictive as to who can compete?
Soccer has a true World Cup which is just what hockey needs.
It's just an opinion, I don't think they're trying to ruin anything for anyone.
Yes, his was an opinion, but I'm talking more about the ones who straight out say the players are going to phone it in and that there's nothing at stake. Who's to say what the players are going to do or what they consider "something"? National pride is a pretty big thing for lots of guys, and if some are content with just represent their continents, what does it matter to anyone else? No one is forcing the players to go, no one is forced to watch it so why want it to fail so bad? More people enjoy it than not so it failing really wouldn't have any benefit to anyone, including the ones who don't like it. We get it, they think the tournament is a joke, we heard it the first time. The end. Move on.
^ I think many fans are feeling betrayed by the NHL. Fans had waited years for NHL players to finally be able to participate in the Olympics, and only 18 years after the first one of these Games, it looks like it might have happened for the final time. Now, we're being treated to a tournament, during training camps, stealing every teams' best players away from valuable fitness testing and training opportunities to go play for their country and/or continent in an international-flavoured NHL cash-grab.
I actually see the NHL's side on this, too -- who would want to shut down their league for two weeks during the middle of the playoff race? -- but at least at the Olympics, when we win in hockey, we move Canada upwards in the overall medal totals. Here, what do we get? A ridiculous-looking trophy.
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How could Germany vs. Anyone be considered best on best any more than Canada vs. NA? Germany would struggle against most AHL teams, while NA has a legitimate shot at winning the whole damn tournament
It's not the Olympics, it's not trying to be the Olympics and it never will be the Olympics, so why do you feel it should be anything like them? If you don't like the tournament don't watch it and quit trying to ruin it for the people who do like it. Simple.
You are completely missing the context of the discussion.
Some people have been vehemently angry that many people here aren't as excited for this tournament as they would be the Olympics or previous versions of the tournament that was country vs. country for true international hockey supremacy. Those of us who feel that way have explained why, and been accused of whining or not liking hockey.
No one is trying to ruin anything for you. This is a discussion forum and if some people here aren't as excited for this tournament as they have been others of the international variety in the past, that shouldn't take away from your enjoyment at all. If you don't like the fact this is being discussed, you can move on and not comment on it. The reason it's still being discussed is because people continue to ask questions / argue about how others are regarding it. No one is forcing you to read or weigh in.
Lastly, your comments on the example that tried to invalidate the competitive nature of the Olympics by pointing out Canada plays Germany in preliminary play was just as weak and a reach as it was when originally posted. That has nothing to do with what was being discussed and you know it.
Well to be fair the NBA doesn't have to interrupt their season. And last I checked there were more players declining to go (see Olympic Basketball, Canada). As for soccer, isn't the Olympic tournament more restrictive as to who can compete?
Soccer has a true World Cup which is just what hockey needs.
Yes, except soccer is played by literally every country in the world and their World Cup has been in existence since 1930.
And they don't have ridiculous things like Team Europe, or Under 23, because they don't have too.
I hate when sports use "World Cup/Championships" when it's not actually the world competing.
^ I think many fans are feeling betrayed by the NHL. Fans had waited years for NHL players to finally be able to participate in the Olympics, and only 18 years after the first one of these Games, it looks like it might have happened for the final time. Now, we're being treated to a tournament, during training camps, stealing every teams' best players away from valuable fitness testing and training opportunities to go play for their country and/or continent in an international-flavoured NHL cash-grab.
I actually see the NHL's side on this, too -- who would want to shut down their league for two weeks during the middle of the playoff race? -- but at least at the Olympics, when we win in hockey, we move Canada upwards in the overall medal totals. Here, what do we get? A ridiculous-looking trophy.
Betrayed? Because guys are missing fitness testing and training time for an international tournament? That's hyperbole. NHL has said participating in Olympics has nothing to do with this tournament.
I get being skeptical and lukewarm to the tournament but I say lets see where this tournament goes. You have to start somewhere. If it wasn't for "gimmick" events like this we wouldn't have Espo's speech, Henderson's goal, Gretzky to Lemieux etc.
Or we could hear how Backlund did in fitness testing.
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Yes, except soccer is played by literally every country in the world and their World Cup has been in existence since 1930.
But just imagine all the nay sayers in 1930 talking about what a meaningless tournament the World Cup would be. It has no history, there was no qualifications, long travel, European teams not interested in participating and refusing to enter, intervention from royalty to field some teams, star players refusing to participate...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
You have to make history. If this becomes a regular thing and manages to gain some prestige, the history will follow. You can't have history right from the start of something new (which, despite World Cups happening before, this sort of is).
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But just imagine all the nay sayers in 1930 talking about what a meaningless tournament the World Cup would be. It has no history, there was no qualifications, long travel, European teams not interested in participating and refusing to enter, intervention from royalty to field some teams, star players refusing to participate...........
It was actually the other way around, where the Olympics (held the US) weren't going to include soccer because of the lack of popularity in NA. And so FIFA created the tournament.
And as mentioned, they didn't have any teams that didnt actually represent any meaningful part of the globe. In fact, the world cup includes more teams than countries, as the UK participates as separate nations (I think others do too).
I honestly dont think people would have as much of a problem without Team Europe and U23. They could easily be replaced by Slovakia and Switzerland.
"But then we won't see Connor McDavid and Anze Kopitar!!@!" - That's where the cash grab becomes obvious.
My issues with this tournament :
1. It's an attempt to create a national interest similar to the Olympics, without any real history or drama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarley
I don't care about where the money goes, my problem is that the tournament is a joke with made up teams, no history, and nothing at stake.
I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality where the Canada Cup and World Cup wasn't a highly anticipated best-on-best international tournament featuring the best players in the world playing their hearts out. Where the '87 Canada Cup - regarded by many people, including Gretzky, as the best hockey they've ever seen played - didn't happen. Where the '96 World Cup wasn't the inauguration of an era when Canada and the U.S. became bitter hockey rivals.
Just because something doesn't have any personal history with you doesn't mean it doesn't have any history. Best-on-best international hockey happened before professionals started participating in the Olympics. And it was fantastic hockey.
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So you'd be more excited if the tournament had Canada playing Germany, which would only be close if Germany trapped all of the offense out of the game, because that would be the best Canadians vs. the best Germans, rather than Canada vs. a team of the most exciting young players in the game?
I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality where the Canada Cup and World Cup wasn't a highly anticipated best-on-best international tournament featuring the best players in the world playing their hearts out. Where the '87 Canada Cup - regarded by many people, including Gretzky, as the best hockey they've ever seen played - didn't happen. Where the '96 World Cup wasn't the inauguration of an era when Canada and the U.S. became bitter hockey rivals.
Just because something doesn't have any personal history with you doesn't mean it doesn't have any history. Best-on-best international hockey happened before professionals started participating in the Olympics. And it was fantastic hockey.
Yes it was fun to watch. I can only speak for myself but it was great because you could get behind Team Canada and hope they could beat the best the other countries had to offer. In this tourney it's tough for me to get behind Team Canada possibly play another team with Canadians on it. Same for the Americans. For me it's not the best every country has to offer, it's a few countries and a couple made up teams. It's no World Cup. But maybe it will be exciting, and I hope it is, because right now my excitement level for it is pretty much zero.
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Basically pasting this from the other thread on the same tangent, but
I really do believe that the Olympics opens the world to best on best hockey, people that would never otherwise watch it, and turns them on to watching and/or participating in the sport. I honestly think that 2002 Salt Lake and 2010 Vancouver created whole new generations of fans and players in the United States. It's the premier event of a world-wide sports competition.
I don't think this has the same appeal. People who like hockey will watch it. People who don't normally follow hockey have absolutely zero idea that this is happening.
The Canada Cups and World Cups of the past were great hockey, of course. This tournament will be great hockey as well. But it doesn't expose hockey to new audiences, which is, IMO, what the NHL should be worried about. Not pulling in more dough from broadcasters and advertisers. It's short-sighted IMO.
Besides, as the last few days have shown, players don't give a crap. Most people participating were teenagers or younger when the NHL first went to the Olympics. It's what they want to participate in. They want to be Olympians. Not Team Europe "world" champions.
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Sweden and Finland are consistently better than Russia in the Olympics. Why wouldn't they have full national teams?
In terms of NHL talent, Sweden could probably put together a pretty competitive team but I don't think Finland would be as competitive as Russia. Team Europe put together of the best Finns, Swedes, Czechs, etc would be awesome to watch.
The problem is there's two different feelings being discussed that's leading to everyone arguing and not understanding how the other side doesn't see it their way.
Yes of course the NHL is business and of course they're entitled to, and will do what's in their best interest. Yes, the Olympics get all the money when the players play in them, and therefore the NHL would be stupid to keep that going and not cash in on their own version of it. Everyone gets that, I don't think you guys need to keep hammering that point home.
As fans though, we don't give a **** who's making the money, we want to watch what we want to watch. And it's clear that this is a goofy tournament style that would have been fine if it wasn't replacing the Olympics. That's the rub for most fans against it.
If this was an extra tournament to bring in revenue for the NHL than fine, it'd be kind of neat to watch before the season, if not a little silly.
But the fact they replaced something that brings hockey fans together all over the world with a non best on best tournament featuring countries, continents and age cut offs all in the same tournament AND is before the NHL season right when players and teams are super into training camp and getting ready for the season is just so silly, and the players seem to be putting the same level of care into it as the fans.
I sincerely hope this is so bad that the NHL feels pressured into continuing Olympic representation, that's my hope in all the backlash. So it isn't just bitching for the sake of bitching.
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For me it's not the best every country has to offer, it's a few countries and a couple made up teams. It's no World Cup.
I honestly don't understand what you mean. Which players (injuries aside) aren't participating in this tournament who would participate in the Olympics? Personally, the participation of teams like Norway and Latvia does nothing to elevate the hockey played at the Olympics. On the contrary, it means every Olympic tournament had a bunch of pointless and irrelevant games.
The only thing that annoys me about the new World Cup of hockey format is the mixed teams. I would have been happy keeping the traditional six team format. Still, there's no doubt it has put more stars in the tournament.
Hockey will never have a World Cup with dozens of teams because the sport simply isn't popular enough. It's not soccer. I don't see the value in watching Canada or the U.S. pummel the crap out of a Denmark or Kazakstan in an international tournament. There's something to be said for a tournament where the quality of all teams is high. Most people think the Euro Cup of soccer is a better quality tournament than the World Cup.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
