[CP Story] Bridge over Troubled Water: Gaudreau Contract

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Left winger on the right side; right winger on the left side?

Tkachuk has a mean one-timer on the right. Frolik is fine on either side, I don't think he has any more ability on the right than the left.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

If Johnny's out, I probably go with something like:

Frolik-Monahan-Tkachuk
Bouma-Backlund-Stajan
Shinkaruk-Bennett-Brouwer
Ferland-Jankowski-Pribyl

You've got Tkachuk on the wrong side and I don't think he's ready for first line duty. I'd rather pair him with Bennett where I can see a long term partnership. Having Brouwer with Monahan gives some veteran scoring to replace Gaudreau's.

Moving Stajan to wing is a possibility if Hamilton or Jankowski are ready but Jankowski can also play the wing. I'd leave Frolik with Backlund, they make a good pairing.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You've got Tkachuk on the wrong side and I don't think he's ready for first line duty. I'd rather pair him with Bennett where I can see a long term partnership.

I think having a 19 year old and a 20 year old on the same line while your top forward is out of the lineup is playing with fire. Even if the line is Tkachuk-Monahan-Frolik you have a good experience balance. Him being on the top line isn't that big of an issue, it's actually a fair challenge for Monahan in what should probably be a big year for him to be able to carry a rookie like that. Tkachuk's playmaking also gives you someone who can set Monahan up which without Gaudreau is an issue.

Having Brouwer with Monahan gives some veteran scoring to replace Gaudreau's.

You don't really want Brouwer for scoring outside of the power play. Brouwer's 5v5 scoring rate (1.38 P/60 2014-16) is that of a 3rd liner like Lance Bouma (1.35). Gaudreau's especially last season (2.28) is almost double that. Frolik's a better option IMO if it came to it. Or Bennett on Monahan's wing.

Moving Stajan to wing is a possibility if Hamilton or Jankowski are ready but Jankowski can also play the wing.

I'd be a more comfortable with Stajan on Backs' wing if Frolik isn't. Matt Stajan can play in that sort of role, too, he has the skill and experience to do it.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

No, don't believe so. He's a winger. Left shooting right winger primarily.

When did he last line up at center? Don't recall him doing it for either the Flames, Jets or Hawks. Don't know about Florida but I doubt it.

He's a winger.

He can play all 3 forward positions . . . this is pretty common knowledge.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2...rts/702109808/

"He's useful in all areas," Quenneville said. "He can play all three forward positions

http://jetswhiteout.com/2014/03/11/j...moving-center/

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...michael-frolik

Frolik provides the Flames with a solid depth forward that can score, but also play at all positions.

You're welcome.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

He can play all 3 forward positions . . . this is pretty common knowledge.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2...rts/702109808/

"He's useful in all areas," Quenneville said. "He can play all three forward positions

http://jetswhiteout.com/2014/03/11/j...moving-center/

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...michael-frolik

Frolik provides the Flames with a solid depth forward that can score, but also play at all positions.

You're welcome.

Saying he can play all positions doesn't mean you want him to on a full time basis.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think having a 19 year old and a 20 year old on the same line while your top forward is out of the lineup is playing with fire. Even if the line is Tkachuk-Monahan-Frolik you have a good experience balance. Him being on the top line isn't that big of an issue, it's actually a fair challenge for Monahan in what should probably be a big year for him to be able to carry a rookie like that. Tkachuk's playmaking also gives you someone who can set Monahan up which without Gaudreau is an issue.



You don't really want Brouwer for scoring outside of the power play. Brouwer's 5v5 scoring rate (1.38 P/60 2014-16) is that of a 3rd liner like Lance Bouma (1.35). Gaudreau's especially last season (2.28) is almost double that. Frolik's a better option IMO if it came to it. Or Bennett on Monahan's wing.



I'd be a more comfortable with Stajan on Backs' wing if Frolik isn't. Matt Stajan can play in that sort of role, too, he has the skill and experience to do it.

Having Tkachuk with Bennett gives him some protection so he doesn't need to go up against the other top lines. If Shinkaruk can't handle it well you could put Ferland or Bouma or even Stajan up there if you change the lines aims. Meaning they would still play top minutes but wouldn't be expected to do a lot of scoring.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Saying he can play all positions doesn't mean you want him to on a full time basis.

You're right, but that's not what we're discussing, and it's not what was disputed.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

You're right, but that's not what we're discussing, and it's not what was disputed.

You wanted to move Bennett to the wing and put Frolik at centre. Bennett needs to play centre on a full time basis or he'll end up like some other former centres who aren't comfortable at centre anymore. Frolic is like Cammallari, yeah you can play him there on a temporary basis but why would you when we have at least 4 other players who can handle that position.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You wanted to move Bennett to the wing and put Frolik at centre. Bennett needs to play centre on a full time basis or he'll end up like some other former centres who aren't comfortable at centre anymore. Frolic is like Cammallari, yeah you can play him there on a temporary basis but why would you when we have at least 4 other players who can handle that position.

3 reasons

1) This is not a permanent move, so no worries about Sammy getting caught on the wing.
2) Neither Monahan nor Brouwer are very good puck carriers, which is critical for top lines. Bennett is arguably our best puck carrying forward after Johnny.
3) Frolik plays the center position very well and is extremely responsible. Comparing him to Cammalleri is illogical.

In essence, you don't lose much moving Frolik to 3C but you potentially gain a lot by adding a guy who can carry the mail on the first line.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

3 reasons

1) This is not a permanent move, so no worries about Sammy getting caught on the wing.
2) Neither Monahan nor Brouwer are very good puck carriers, which is critical for top lines. Bennett is arguably our best puck carrying forward after Johnny.
3) Frolik plays the center position very well and is extremely responsible. Comparing him to Cammalleri is illogical.

In essence, you don't lose much moving Frolik to 3C but you potentially gain a lot by adding a guy who can carry the mail on the first line.

1) If he has success on the wing, you have a hard time getting him back to centre. If we are winning the coach will want him on wing and the fans probably as well.

2) The line gets to be a dump and chase line which also works. There are other possible puck carriers currently slated for the farm as well.

3) So Frolic doesn't need to play centre but if he's so good at the position, why hasn't he lined up there with the other teams he's played for?

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

1) If he has success on the wing, you have a hard time getting him back to centre. If we are winning the coach will want him on wing and the fans probably as well.

2) The line gets to be a dump and chase line which also works. There are other possible puck carriers currently slated for the farm as well.

3) So Frolic doesn't need to play centre but if he's so good at the position, why hasn't he lined up there with the other teams he's played for?

1) Any disciplined coach will not have this problem, especially once Gaudreau comes back.
2) Dump and chase top lines aren't terribly effective, especially without a lot of speed, which Monahan and Brouwer lack. I wouldn't be against bringing in a youngster who can carry the puck, Bennett is just the best option IMO
3) Frolik did play center at times with his former teams.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

1) Any disciplined coach will not have this problem, especially once Gaudreau comes back.
2) Dump and chase top lines aren't terribly effective, especially without a lot of speed, which Monahan and Brouwer lack. I wouldn't be against bringing in a youngster who can carry the puck, Bennett is just the best option IMO
3) Frolik did play center at times with his former teams.

We're trying to build a team so IMO I'd like the top young players (Bennett and Tkachuk) to line up where they are going to fit for the next number of years.

3) that he played centre doesn't mean it was a first choice or he'd still be there.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

He can play all 3 forward positions . . . this is pretty common knowledge.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2...rts/702109808/

"He's useful in all areas," Quenneville said. "He can play all three forward positions

http://jetswhiteout.com/2014/03/11/j...moving-center/

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...michael-frolik

Frolik provides the Flames with a solid depth forward that can score, but also play at all positions.

Yeah so, he's a winger. No disrespect to much respected hockey writer samwell9 of MatchSticksandGasoline but he hasn't played down the middle with any regularity since maybe his days in Florida.

Queneville said he can play all three forward positions but used Frolik almost exclusively on the wing, ditto for the Jets. The article you posted during his time with the Jets had him at the middle for a brief moments as well. He's a winger. He's no more a center then Jiri Hudler and Joe Colborne are. Two guys who've lined up down the middle but aren't very good at it.

When I say a player can or cannot play a position I mean with success. Yeah Frolik can line up at center but he obviously can't do it with any sustained success and has found an NHL job on the wing. My expectations of positions are more than "He's played here rarely over the last 6-7 years".

Glad we cleared that up.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Yeah so, he's a winger. No disrespect to much respected hockey writer samwell9 of MatchSticksandGasoline but he hasn't played down the middle with any regularity since maybe his days in Florida.

Queneville said he can play all three forward positions but used Frolik almost exclusively on the wing, ditto for the Jets. The article you posted during his time with the Jets had him at the middle for a brief moments as well. He's a winger. He's no more a center then Jiri Hudler and Joe Colborne are. Two guys who've lined up down the middle but aren't very good at it.

When I say a player can or cannot play a position I mean with success. Yeah Frolik can line up at center but he obviously can't do it with any sustained success and has found an NHL job on the wing. My expectations of positions are more than "He's played here rarely over the last 6-7 years".

Glad we cleared that up.

I said he can play all 3 forward positions. You said he can't. I showed you where you were mistaken. You asked when was the last time he lined up at center, I showed you it was in the last 2 years. He played enough center to take like 70 faceoffs in his 1st season in Winnipeg. He took 205 faceoffs in his 3 seasons with Chicago. He's played much more center than you're implying, but it's not surprising given you're initial instinct was that he never played the position with those two clubs.

It's ok to be wrong.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

I said he can play all 3 forward positions. You said he can't. I showed you where you were mistaken. You asked when was the last time he lined up at center, I showed you it was in the last 2 years. He played enough center to take like 70 faceoffs in his 1st season in Winnipeg. He took 205 faceoffs in his 3 seasons with Chicago. He's played much more center than you're implying, but it's not surprising given you're initial instinct was that he never played the position with those two clubs.

It's ok to be wrong.

The number of face-offs is not a good indication of how "much" center he played.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by the2bears

The number of face-offs is not a good indication of how "much" center he played.

Exactly. See Iginla; Jarome

[Bingo]

Back to Gaudreau, I think this discussion has been interesting because in a microcosm is sort of shows what can happen in a negotiation.

One side could bring in the Tarasenko deal as a comparable but pare it back a year because of the extra RFA year.

The other side could get into statistical reasons why Gaudreau is a special case and has to be paid accordingly.

The Flames could approach it like I do, which is essentially two distinct contracts being joined into one ...a RFA deal and a UFA deal to which Gaudreau's camp can just shake their head and say no thanks.

Happens.

If I'm selling my house and a guy comes in with a spreadsheet showing the last 5 houses to sell in my area, and why my house is inferior because my backyard is 11% smaller than the average of those 5 houses I laugh at him.

It's my house, I'll sell it for what I want.

At the end of the day it comes down to what gets done. Gaudreau can hold out, but he can't sign somewhere else and therefore ultimately he'll have to settle on something. The Flames have the sticking point of a) hurting the relationship (funny how this is never a concern the other way) and b) hurting their season by not getting a key player into the lineup to start things off.

It's going to be an unnerving month

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

I said he can play all 3 forward positions. You said he can't. I showed you where you were mistaken. You asked when was the last time he lined up at center, I showed you it was in the last 2 years. He played enough center to take like 70 faceoffs in his 1st season in Winnipeg. He took 205 faceoffs in his 3 seasons with Chicago. He's played much more center than you're implying, but it's not surprising given you're initial instinct was that he never played the position with those two clubs.

It's ok to be wrong.

You say that like it's a lot of faceoffs. It's not.

Frolik has taken 428 faceoffs in 576 career games. That's less than one a game. He's only had one season in his career where he averaged more than 1 faceoff per game.

When Frolik first went to Chicago, he took 107 faceoffs in 28 games. In the other 548 games he has played, he has taken 321. The playoffs are similar: 45 faceoffs in 7 games in the 2011 playoffs; 18 in the other 31 playoff games he has played.

If we use faceoff totals as our guide, out of 614 total regular season and playoff games played in the NHL, Frolik was used as a Centre for about 35 of them -- five years ago.



Last season, 130 players in the NHL took more faceoffs over the course of the season than Frolik has taken in his entire career. Monahan and Backlund both took over 1000 faceoffs last season. Stajan was third on the team and still averaged almost 10 per game. Bennett was given limited time at Centre and still took 347 faceoffs.

Linden Vey only played 41 games last season, and he took more faceoffs last season than Frolik has in his career.

[PepsiFree]

Arguing that a low number of faceoffs is indicative of an ability to play centre is like arguing that forwards lining up at the point on a PP is indicative of ability to play defence.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Exactly. See Iginla; Jarome

Does he have the ability to play center at the NHL level or not?

I'll rely in Joel Quenneville and Paul Maurice's determination of that over someone who apparently never watched him before becoming a Flame