Flames stars Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau stick together

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Um.. re: bolded. That is an optimistic position. There is plenty of wing talent that could plausibly replace him for the next decade (er... eight years) if push came to shove. Especially if there were an associated cap hit saving to spread out the top end talent:

Kucherov
Panarin
Stone
Forsberg
Tarasenko
Toffoli
Palat
Landeskog
Laine
Keller
Marner
Ehlers
Drouin
Puljujarvi
Connor
Domi
Boeser

..never mind other forwards who while natural centers still could make potent wingers (McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, Bennett, Kuznetsov, MacKinnon, Barkov, Nylander, Aho, Strome, Draisaitl, Nugent-Hopkins, Larkin).

Johnny is special. But he ain't the only special on the entire map. He plays a highly offensive role on a highly offensive team with generous minutes that afford him better offensive production than some two-way centres may get.

Does he excel in his role yes but to say he's irreplaceable is hyperbole. He's not Crosby here. He's not even TJ Brodie. He's not Jamie Benn either.

None of those guys could assuredly replace what Johnny brings. Do some have the potential? Possibly.

But you're right, he's not irreplaceable. He's just harder to replace than Monahan.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

None of those guys could assuredly replace what Johnny brings. Do some have the potential? Possibly.

But you're right, he's not irreplaceable. He's just harder to replace than Monahan.

I love both players. And I actually agree that Gaudreau is about as close to irreplaceable as you can get. But they both can. Centres like Monahan don't grow on trees. And of his closest comparable, he's shown to be the best so far. I would say they are both irreplaceable pieces of the Flames future.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

None of those guys could assuredly replace what Johnny brings. Do some have the potential? Possibly.

But you're right, he's not irreplaceable. He's just harder to replace than Monahan.

Leon Draisaitl, career high 19 goals/51 points, 'assuredly' replaces what Monahan brings? Monahan had more goals with games missed to injury as a 19 year old rookie than Draisaitl has in his 109 game career as a 19 and 20 year old.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Leon Draisaitl, career high 19 goals/51 points, 'assuredly' replaces what Monahan brings? Monahan had more goals with games missed to injury as a 19 year old rookie than Draisaitl has in his 109 game career as a 19 and 20 year old.

I never said he did. But I like his chances of replacing Monahan vs any U23 winger to replace Johnny.

But guys like Eichel, McDavid, Matthews, Seguin, Barkov could do so without hesitation IMO. Scheifele, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, RNH, Reinhart, Bennett, Galchenyuk etc could all potentially replace Monahan.

[JiriHrdina]

And how exactly are you going to get any of those guys? Top centres are nearly impossible to acquire of you don't draft them

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

And how exactly are you going to get any of those guys? Top centres are nearly impossible to acquire of you don't draft them

He'll point out that several were traded recently (including Ryan Johansen) while ignoring the fact that none were just traded on a whim (contract/personality issues being common), all had big acquisition cost (which would open a hole on the Flames), and that top wingers get traded less and are more valuable (even though Hall was just traded for far less than Johansen).

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

And how exactly are you going to get any of those guys? Top centres are nearly impossible to acquire of you don't draft them

The same way you'd go about getting Tarasenko. The point is, what Johnny brings is more unique and scarce in today's league.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He'll point out that several were traded recently (including Ryan Johansen) while ignoring the fact that none were just traded on a whim (contract/personality issues being common), all had big acquisition cost (which would open a hole on the Flames), and that top wingers get traded less and are more valuable (even though Hall was just traded for far less than Johansen).

Wow, you're all over the place.

Firstly, Johansen was a better player than Hall, independent of position, at the time of trade.

Secondly, I don't see Jones as being all that much better than Larsson. They were both the first defenseman chosen in their drafts, only 2 years apart.

Lastly, I've never argued that top wingers are more valuable than top centers. I'm arguing that elite wingers are more valuable than good centers.

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole and strawmen arguments around here is ridiculous. I guess that's the default method of debate here? Bad form, Peter. . .

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

The same way you'd go about getting Tarasenko. The point is, what Johnny brings is more unique and scarce in today's league.



Wow, you're all over the place.

Firstly, Johansen was a better player than Hall, independent of position, at the time of trade.

Secondly, I don't see Jones as being all that much better than Larsson. They were both the first defenseman chosen in their drafts, only 2 years apart.

Lastly, I've never argued that top wingers are more valuable than top centers. I'm arguing that elite wingers are more valuable than good centers.

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole and strawmen arguments around here is ridiculous. I guess that's the default method of debate here? Bad form, Peter. . .

Well you insinuating that Monahan a good centre while Gaudreau is elite is just in your own mind. Neither have the track record to be labelled as yet. As far as building a team goes, I'd take Monahan over Gaudreau.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well you insinuating that Monahan a good centre while Gaudreau is elite is just in your own mind. Neither have the track record to be labelled as yet. As far as building a team goes, I'd take Monahan over Gaudreau.

That's fine to have your opinion. I know there are many other who share my opinion, so it's not just in my head. Since he's entered the league, Gaudreau is 3rd behind Benn and Ovechkin in LW scoring. He's a 2 time all star. He's the very definition of elite, in the same way I'd consider McDavid elite without having a 5 year track record.

Monahan is a good center but still lacks the dimension and production of a top 10 center, let alone top 3. He's probably right around the 20-30 mark of leagues top centers. I'd actually take Bennett over Monahan if I was building from scratch.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

That's fine to have your opinion. I know there are many other who share my opinion, so it's not just in my head. Since he's entered the league, Gaudreau is 3rd behind Benn and Ovechkin in LW scoring. He's a 2 time all star. He's the very definition of elite, in the same way I'd consider McDavid elite without having a 5 year track record.

Monahan is a good center but still lacks the dimension and production of a top 10 center, let alone top 3. He's probably right around the 20-30 mark of leagues top centers. I'd actually take Bennett over Monahan if I was building from scratch.

In your opinion which isn't shared by everyone.
Monahan is a year younger and playing a much more difficult position which will take longer to learn.

I like Gaudreau and hate being put in the position of criticizing him but his size and strength make his importance to the team less. He needs a physical player to protect him if he wants to be effective in away games on a consistent basis. Scoring isn't everything either. Benn and Ovechkin bring a physical aspect to their game that Johnny will never hope to.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Firstly, Johansen was a better player than Hall, independent of position, at the time of trade.

Secondly, I don't see Jones as being all that much better than Larsson. They were both the first defenseman chosen in their drafts, only 2 years apart.

Lastly, I've never argued that top wingers are more valuable than top centers. I'm arguing that elite wingers are more valuable than good centers.

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole and strawmen arguments around here is ridiculous. I guess that's the default method of debate here? Bad form, Peter. . .

Firstly, by what metric? You've repeated the huge value that being able to score carries. Hall has a career PPG of 0.82, Johansen of only 0.65.

Worth noting? Monahan has a career PPG of 0.67 and he's just a "good" replaceable centre. Gaudreau is at 0.89 PPG and he's "elite" and hard to replace. Similar differences between Monahan and Gaudreau as Hall and Johansen... yet you wouldn't dare call Monahan better.

Secondly, draft position is irrelevant. Hall was taken 1st, Johansen 4th, you still think Johansen > Hall. Monahan 6th, Gaudreau 104, Gaudreau > Monahan.

Lastly, nobody has any idea what that is, because your subjective versions of elite and good don't seem to have any consistency at all.

Seriously, I'd been a little less concerned about reading the informal fallacies page on Wikipedia and a little more concerned with your crippling rate of formal fallacies.

Or you could just stop being undeservedly smug.
Though your name IS Peter...

[JiriHrdina]

Honestly is this guy trolling us or what?

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Firstly, by what metric? You've repeated the huge value that being able to score carries. Hall has a career PPG of 0.82, Johansen of only 0.65.

By a few metrics, notably the 71 point season he was coming off of, the fact that he's been significantly less injury prone, the fact that his IQ is greater than that of a coconut. These two guys have had vastly different development curve profiles, and as others have noted, career PPG is not necessarily the most reasonable metric.

Worth noting? Monahan has a career PPG of 0.67 and he's just a "good" replaceable centre. Gaudreau is at 0.89 PPG and he's "elite" and hard to replace. Similar differences between Monahan and Gaudreau as Hall and Johansen... yet you wouldn't dare call Monahan better.

I think Monahan is better than Hall. Over the past two seasons it hasn't been all that close. Hall to Johansen is not at all the same thing as Gaudreau to Monahan.

Secondly, draft position is irrelevant. Hall was taken 1st, Johansen 4th, you still think Johansen > Hall. Monahan 6th, Gaudreau 104, Gaudreau > Monahan.

You're 100% right. Draft position is irrelevant. I was just being lazy - but Adam Larsson is a damn good defenseman who was playing top pairing minutes at the time of his trade. I wouldn't be at all shocked if he ends up the better dman between the two.

Lastly, nobody has any idea what that is, because your subjective versions of elite and good don't seem to have any consistency at all.

Elite is a guy who could reasonably challenge for a scoring title. Top 3-5 player in his position, perennial all star, shows up in big moments.

I'd consider good in a broader range of players who are pretty definitively inside the top 15-50 in their position, could be an all star in a given year, but don't have a realistic shot at winning any major individual trophies.

Seriously, I'd been a little less concerned about reading the informal fallacies page on Wikipedia and a little more concerned with your crippling rate of formal fallacies.

Or you could just stop being undeservedly smug.
Though your name IS Peter...

I'm not the one throwing up strawman arguments, putting words in other people's mouths. I am posting my opinion, supporting with facts when asked, and responding to fair criticism when appropriate. Most of this post falls into this last bucket of honest discussion, which I appreciate.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Honestly is this guy trolling us or what?

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance..

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

None of those guys could assuredly replace what Johnny brings. Do some have the potential? Possibly.

But you're right, he's not irreplaceable. He's just harder to replace than Monahan.

Looking at that list Kucherov, Panarin and Tarensenko all play on the same level or have shown higher levels than Gaudreau.

I think Johnny is amazing like any other Flames fan would/should but your arguments are trending towards ridiculous.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Honestly is this guy trolling us or what?

At least he's not resurrecting 7 year old threads. That's a blessing at this time of year.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance..

I'm sorry, am I in the minority thinking that Johnny is more valuable than Monahan? Just because it's the popular thing to believe amongst the CP inner circle, doesn't make it true . . . I'd bet good money that Gaudreau would come out way on top in a coach's / GMs poll. Seems having a different opinion around here is perceived as being either a troll or a moron . . .

Meanwhile you don't even know what positions our players can play.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance..

You guys are brutal. The guy is making a reasonable argument that Gaudreau is better than Monahan and whether you agree or not he deserves a better fate than ridicule.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by edslunch

You guys are brutal. The guy is making a reasonable argument that Gaudreau is better than Monahan and whether you agree or not he deserves a better fate than ridicule.

He's borderline spamming the board.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Seems having a different opinion around here is perceived as being either a troll or a moron . . .

Actually you seem like a troll because your logic is completely inconsistent and you''ve been caught changing your argument and lying about it already. Plus, you then constantly add garbage like this:

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Meanwhile you don't even know what positions our players can play.

Were you responding in kind? Maybe. But you've also made a fair number of posts where you basically call this whole community hyperbolic idiots who don't know how to have a logically valid conversation.

Ask 1CupChuck how repeatedly talking about the community like that worked out.