The Left Lane/Right Lane Thunderdome Thread

[zamler]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They should. If you are going 30 over the posted limit it is reasonable to think that everyone knows that is not within acceptable bounds
The problem is some drivers think they are somehow magically exempt from those boundaries because they are such good drivers.
My point is the fast drivers are just as dangerous as the slow ones.

You seem to think you are exempt from moving over to the right lane if someone is going faster than what you consider reasonable, correct if wrong but that's the vibe I get.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

You seem to think you are exempt from moving over to the right lane if someone is going faster than what you consider reasonable, correct if wrong but that's the vibe I get.

Nope that's not what I said at all. I've actually specifically stated I move over.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They should. If you are going 30 over the posted limit it is reasonable to think that everyone knows that is not within acceptable bounds
The problem is some drivers think they are somehow magically exempt from those boundaries because they are such good drivers.
My point is the fast drivers are just as dangerous as the slow ones.

So what is the acceptable range then?

Now you are moving the goalposts, but yes, fast drivers are also potentially dangerous, just as slow ones are. ALL drivers are potentially dangerous. That is why 1) drivers should drive a speed that makes them not dangerous (or minimally dangerous is probably a better description) and 2) a system needs to be in place that improves overall safety, considering that people will drive different speeds.

[JiriHrdina]

It is obviously subjective but there is a point where it is pretty clear that it isn't acceptable.
I also generally agree that people who are not going with the flow are the most dangerous - that's both if they are going really slow or fast.

[zamler]

What we need is much better enforcement of the left lane bandits.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It is obviously subjective but there is a point where it is pretty clear that it isn't acceptable.
I also generally agree that people who are not going with the flow are the most dangerous - that's both if they are going really slow or fast.

That's really it. The flow. And there are two flows. The right lane, and the people that are going faster and leapfrogging the cars in the right lane. It's a thing of beauty when it's all working nicely.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You said 30 seconds though. No pass should take 30 seconds.

Either the vehicles were well separated, (meaning you didn't have to pass them all at once), or you weren't going 120.

Either way, you went into the left lane without considering whether you had the space to do so.

It can easily take 30 seconds to pass several slow vehicles, especially if there are campers or trucks. A lot of drivers follow too close on the highway and don't leave enough room for cars to overtake.

Now, I suppose I could just stomp on the gas of my Dodge Grand Caravan with a wife and two kids in it just so I don't inconvenience a guy doing 135. But frankly, I don't feel the need to accommodate rageaholics doing 25 k over the limit who can't ease off the gas for a few seconds. Driving way faster than the flow of traffic is at least as dangerous as driving slower.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It is obviously subjective but there is a point where it is pretty clear that it isn't acceptable.
I also generally agree that people who are not going with the flow are the most dangerous - that's both if they are going really slow or fast.

Okay good, so we agree. And I assume you also agree that it would vary, depending on the vehicle being driven?

So there are going to be differences of opinion. And that means that there are inevitably going to be people that are going to think 'reasonable' is a number that others think isn't reasonable.

IMO, it is better to accept that this is going to be the case, instead of getting angry at people who's opinion is different.

If we all accept that others are going to drive at different speeds, and we simply account for that, and follow a system that accounts for that (instead of getting angry with them), we will all be better off.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So what is the acceptable range then?

Now you are moving the goalposts, but yes, fast drivers are also potentially dangerous, just as slow ones are. ALL drivers are potentially dangerous. That is why 1) drivers should drive a speed that makes them not dangerous (or minimally dangerous is probably a better description) and 2) a system needs to be in place that improves overall safety, considering that people will drive different speeds.

If only there were some sort of regulated speed value that we could refer to as a common frame of reference for these sorts of questions. Maybe we could even post them on signs or something so everybody was clear on them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It can easily take 30 seconds to pass several slow vehicles, especially if there are campers or trucks. A lot of drivers follow too close on the highway and don't leave enough room for cars to overtake.

Now, I suppose I could just stomp on the gas of my Dodge Grand Caravan with a wife and two kids in it just so I don't inconvenience a guy doing 135. But frankly, I don't feel the need to accommodate rageaholics doing 25 k over the limit who can't ease off the gas for a few seconds. Driving way faster than the flow of traffic is at least as dangerous as driving slower.

If you're not going to be considerate of others, they are not going to be considerate of you.

I am not condoning their behavior (neither the speed, nor - especially - driving too close), but if you say (essentially) 'screw them', you're on your own.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If only there were some sort of regulated speed value that we could refer to as a common frame of reference for these sorts of questions. Maybe we could even post them on signs or something so everybody was clear on them.

Yes, hoping everyone will drive the same speed is an excellent solution. Problem solved.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you're not going to be considerate of others, they are not going to be considerate of you.

I am not condoning their behavior (neither the speed, nor - especially - driving too close), but if you say (essentially) 'screw them', you're on your own.

There's a range of behaviour I'll be considerate towards.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, hoping everyone will drive the same speed is an excellent solution. Problem solved.

Of course there's a variance of acceptable speeds on a highway. People differ on what exactly that variance is. On a 110 k limit highway is that variance 100-130? Or 100-150? I'm going with the former. And I believe the more you're exceeding the limit, the less you can reasonably expect other drivers to accommodate your behaviour. Someone doing 120 being held up by a car doing 100 has more justification for feeling hard done by than someone doing 140 being held up by a car doing 120.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

To wade into this, I often cruise in the left lane. One of the reasons for this is that, particularly in this province, no one seems to give a flying #### about destroying other peoples' paint by firing asphalt bullets at them, so if the left lane is open, I'll drive behind no one instead of someone, thank you very much.

The caveat here is that this is only really true when the right lane has cars and the left lane is wide open. If someone's coming up behind me I'm getting over to the right immediately, unless doing so would end up trapping me behind a car that's moving slower than me, in which case I'll wait to pass him before I get over. Once you're stuck behind that guy, getting back in the left lane to pass him can be a chore because suddenly you're moving slower than the left lane traffic, and I'm not subjecting myself to that inconvenience for the sake of a guy who wants to tailgate me. If there are a couple of cars in a row, yes, that might take 30 seconds, even though on highways I'm usually going about as fast as possible without being in "blatantly speeding" territory.

The second situation is where both lanes are relatively full, and the left lane is moving even just somewhat faster than the right lane, I'm sticking with the left lane... even though it should really just be empty except for the people who are going to speed right by the guys in the right lane. Tragedy of the commons, sure, but if this is the world we're living in, I'm not going to sit in the slower lane on principle.

That being said, here is the one thing I absolutely wish we had here: If you're in the left lane, and someone's behind you in the left lane, and they turn on their left turn signal, it means, politely, "I would like to accelerate past you please". At that point, you've now been told what the plan is, and you should attempt as soon as safely possible to let that person by. When you do, they should give you a friendly wave - signifying that this isn't a race, it's just about everyone going the speed they want to go.

If that system were established we'd all have better communication. I love that little signal, and it's totally commonplace in Europe based on my experience driving there.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They should. If you are going 30 over the posted limit it is reasonable to think that everyone knows that is not within acceptable bounds

I disagree with this. This is one problem with the "40 over" law in b.c. - there are roads there that are flat and straight, two lane, speed limit 100, and I can do a comfortable 180km/h on even in a crossover, much less a car actually built for going quickly. Why would that ever be necessary? Because driving on the weekends, you may need to pass several vehicles (usually slow moving campers and RVs) as quickly as you can to get out of the oncoming traffic lane a safe distance before the visibility horizon. That's an extreme example (even if I could comfortably hit 180 I probably wouldn't), but let's just use your limit; 30 over the posted limited there is 130kph. That may not be enough to safely pass those vehicles. What might be unsafely fast in some circumstances is actually safer in others than going slower.

Anecdotally, here's another issue you used to always see on the Sea to Sky out north of Vancouver before it got expanded for the Olympics. That road is a ton of fun to drive and is absolutely beautiful. For the most part, aside from a few stretches, the limit was 90 kph. A lot of it is two lanes and you can never pass in the oncoming lane (too many twists), so once you catch up to someone taking their time, you're basically stuck, which is fine. Slow down and enjoy the view for a bit. So a line of cars develops and all of them want to pass the RV or whoever's at the front doing 20+kph below the limit.

When you get to the occasional part of the road where it's straight for a bit, it expands so that there's a passing lane, which is where all the people who want to pass that RV guy move into the left lane and give'r. Because of the nature of the terrain, those passing lanes are usually pretty short, so you have a limited time to get past the slower traffic before the road merges into one lane again. Meanwhile - and this is completely inevitable - the people in the right lane speed up the moment there is any chance of them being passed. It's a psychological thing - if traffic was moving at 80kph when it was a single lane, once it splits to two, the right lane is going 90kph.

Problem: one of the first guys behind the RV (let's call him First Guy) who only cares about himself, decides he's going to pass at the speed needed for him personally to get past the RV at the front of the line. This ignores the other people who have accumulated behind who would also like to pass the RV. So First Guy goes ~100 and gets past the people going 90kph in the right lane. Instead of all the cars getting past the slow guy at the front, only two or three manage it. The rest are stuck merging back in behind RV guy again, and resuming the inevitable 80kph once it turns back into a single lane. They must then wait for another 10 km or so for another short stretch of passing lane and hope the process doesn't repeat.

If First Guy had just hammered it up to 130, everyone would've got by, and once the merge happens, the people who were fine going slower are still behind RV guy, while the others can resume normal speeds of 100-110 or whatever.

[Tiger]

What I find funny is the complaints of slowing down from 140-120 for a minute. well passing. it cost them 0.3km.

Also people complain that slow cars cause issues, but it is the variation of speed on the road that causes issues. so on a fairly busy road if people are going a range of 100-140hm/h it is much less safe as say if everyone is going 110-120.

That being said when it is bad weather I see that range of speeds vary greatly. and it is usually not the slow cars that get into accidents that I have seen, its usually the fast cars that did something stupid getting around slow cars. for all the times I've seen this on the highway in my opinion, slow car are a pain, but usually the fast drivers are the do the idiotic things... usually they think they are above average drivers, but the stat is about 90% of people think they are above average drivers so really most people are wrong and over estimate their ability.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by zamler

What we need is much better enforcement of the left lane bandits.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There's a range or behaviour I'll be considerate towards.



Of course there's a variance of acceptable speeds on a highway. People differ on what exactly that variance is. On a 110 k limit highway is that variance 100-130? Or 100-150? I'm going with the former. And I believe the more you're exceeding the limit, the less you can reasonably expect other drivers to accommodate your behaviour. Someone doing 120 being held up by a car doing 100 has more justification for feeling hard done by than someone doing 140 being held up by a car doing 120.

Sure.

Also, staying to the right and just letting faster vehicles by, makes all of these issues go away.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by jammies

I always stay in the right lane except to pass, and I'll check my mirror and make sure there is no d-bag going 30+ km/h over the limit in the left lane who is rapidly approaching before pulling into the passing lane; if there is, I just slow down, let him pass, then drop in behind him and accelerate again.

Speeding and proper lane etiquette are two different issues. I have no problem with going 10-20 km over the limit if it's daytime, the road is dry, and visibility is good. However, as soon as you start hitting 30-40 km/hr over the limit, you are a bad driver no matter what the conditions. The key is you don't want to be the driver that stands out, whether that be from going too fast, going too slow, being in the wrong lane, stopping in a merge lane, or any other behaviour that runs the risk of other drivers having to adjust their driving to accommodate your unusual driving.

Too many speeders, especially, think "Oh I've got the reflexes and skill to drive like this with a minimal increase in danger", which isn't the point at all. By speeding like this, you stress other drivers that notice your poor driving and must compensate for it, as well as endanger other crappy drivers who don't notice your poor driving and don't take it into account while maneuvering their own vehicle. Further, most speeders overestimate their own skill at driving because they erroneously assume that not believing they are ever at fault in close calls or accidents is the same as actually not being at fault.

I agree with most of your post and the general message.

However, with respect to the bolded statement, how do you reconcile that with countries where people -safely ad consistently - drive more than 200 kmph (and sometimes significantly more)?

The simple fact of the matter is that some drivers, and some vehicles, can safely travel faster than others.

For some reason, this makes some people angry, and they become resistant. I don't understand that reaction, because it is dangerous (and pointless).

Obviously, where there is a speed limit, it is not safe for ANYONE to drive at a speed that is substantially higher than the limit. However, if people were less resistant, and more cooperative, things would go much smoother.

[Locke]

We just did a trip from Calgary to Kelowna and back.

Long distance driving is a marathon, not a sprint. Doing 130+ on the highway is going to get you there only marginally faster if that depending on traffic. Its just not worth it. If you consider having to slow down for corners in the mountains or, in our case, an accident where we waited on the highway at a full stop for over 3 hours, what kind of time do you think you're gaining?

On our trip there was a huge pickup truck (from BC no less, those gas-guzzling bastards!) that was on our ass for miles until he passed us.

And then he went and had to stop for gas/piss/whatever and we passed him and then he was driving like a lunatic again right behind us. What an idiot.

So great. We're doing 100-120 km/h depending on the speed limits where we're at, generally just under 10 km/h over the speed limit of the area, nothing crazy, but its steady, economical and gets you there while hes busting his nuts going 130+ to get...where? Whats the point?

The turtle won the race folks, through steady and consistent progress.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You said 30 seconds though. No pass should take 30 seconds.

Either the vehicles were well separated, (meaning you didn't have to pass them all at once), or you weren't going 120.

Either way, you went into the left lane without considering whether you had the space to do so.

I think you're greatly underestimating how long a pass should take. The pass as described (3 vehicles going 110 km/h being passed by a car going 120 km/h) would take more than 30 seconds. With a 10 km/h speed differential, 30 seconds will gain you about 80 meters on the cars in the right lane. Even if you only allow a second between each of the 3 vehicles (and add the same behind the last vehicle and in front of the first one to allow for safe lane changes) that's about 200 meters you need to gain on them to pass. Even if you're going 140 km/h the pass would still take 25 seconds to make.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I think you're greatly underestimating how long a pass should take. The pass as described (3 vehicles going 110 km/h being passed by a car going 120 km/h) would take more than 30 seconds. With a 10 km/h speed differential, 30 seconds will gain you about 80 meters on the cars in the right lane. Even if you only allow a second between each of the 3 vehicles (and add the same behind the last vehicle and in front of the first one to allow for safe lane changes) that's about 200 meters you need to gain on them to pass. Even if you're going 140 km/h the pass would still take 25 seconds to make.

If you're passing 3 vehicles, wait until the left lane is open to do so.