Banning/Allowing Religious Garbs

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by peter12

We consult each other on everything. Why not? I'm not a drooling fool, I can tell her when clothes don't fit well. She can do the same for me.

It's more complementary than anything.

Obviously a misogynist.

[peter12]

I find it funny how many of the liberal secularists will give any benefit of the doubt to the hypothetical personal experiences of Muslims but automatocally discount the everyday empiricism of Christians on this board.

Completely prejudiced.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Christian men may not expect their wives to wear a burka, but I can't count the times I've had women come into the salon and want to dramatically change their hair but "my husband would never let me!" Women who have to check with their husbands before they spend any money, etc, etc.

Very weak argument. Those exact quotes can be reversed and applied to a lot of men and how their wife has expectations of how they should look and wants to keep a tight reign on the purse. It's ridiculous to look at that hard data, counter that you would anecdotally imagine that the Christian numbers in the US and Canada would be similar to the lowest levels of the Islamic world and then try to imply that we have no basis to call a spade a spade because we have yet to drive every potential misogynist micro aggression from our society.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As interesting as the conversation is, it's kind of fruitless.

Religion is irrelevant in terms of misogyny. It occurs in every religion and outside of religion as well. Muslim, Christian, whatever... Gandhi was a misogynist. Misogyny today is a mix of old world thinking and the lowest common denominator. You can argue all you want about who is more misogynistic but it's completely irrelevant.

The problem is that as western society has matured, we have been able to recognize the misogyny and are gradually creating a society where it is not acceptable. When you have bound your life to a book, and those words tell you that it is not just acceptable, but the will of God then it makes it very hard to move on from one part of it without abandoning the rest. And it's not just the Koran, there are many sects of Christianity that take it literally.

A solution to all of this is some massive examining of religious texts by leaders to update them to modern standards so people can continue to maintain their beliefs, but not have to be hateful to do that. I understand their are some religions that do this by not taknig passages literally, and accepting them as "texts of the day" no longer relevant in their literal interpretation, but they are by far the minority.

[undercoverbrother]

Maybe the Nudists are right after all.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

A solution to all of this is some massive examining of religious texts by leaders to update them to modern standards so people can continue to maintain their beliefs, but not have to be hateful to do that.

Even then, major progress is unlikely to be seen for 60+ years. Progress is slow and hateful dumb people are the slowest of all.

My main issue is the painting of misogyny as a religious issue, especially when we're talking about just two of the many religions where it happens.

We havent even eliminated it from the world outside of theism, so I'm really not sure why we're pointing fingers.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As interesting as the conversation is, it's kind of fruitless.

Religion is irrelevant in terms of misogyny. It occurs in every religion and outside of religion as well. Muslim, Christian, whatever... Gandhi was a misogynist. Misogyny today is a mix of old world thinking and the lowest common denominator. You can argue all you want about who is more misogynistic but it's completely irrelevant.

Everything occurs in every society. Murder, rape, corruption, child abuse. But they occur to varying degrees. Very little in this world is binary, and the only way to compare cultures or countries with one another is empiricism and statistics. If you care about misogyny, it matters that come cultures are more misogynistic than others, and some are less. It matters because we can use the better cultures as examples of how to improve.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because we want to promote and do more of what the less cultures do, and condemn what the more misogynistic cultures do.

But we can agree that engaging in a weird hybrid of Islamophobia and misogyny is probably not an ideal response to Islamic misogyny.

I find it somewhat funny that the most self-righteous are often the non-religious. Sure, are there aspects of culture that are worse? Yes. But it completely reeks of that good old "regressive liberalism" taboo when you start restricting what might very well be a woman's choice because from the outside you view the practice as wrong.

Are these women indoctrinated to a point where maybe they aren't capable of change themselves? Sure, but leave it to the premier western culture to tell people how they should live their lives by saying "you're letting someone tell you how to live your life, dont do that."

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Are these women indoctrinated to a point where maybe they aren't capable of change themselves? Sure, but leave it to the premier western culture to tell people how they should live their lives by saying "you're letting someone tell you how to live your life, dont do that."

I'm not talking about the women wearing burkas. I'm talking about the men who uphold a ferociously misogynist culture that is straight out of the middle ages. Our grandfathers might have considered topless sunbathing indecent, but I doubt they would have assaulted the people doing it and called them whores while reciting phrases from the bible.

Let's call these men the brutal troglodytes they are. The fact that they're not white, and the fact some white men are also misogynistic troglodytes, is irrelevant. Being selective about who you call out of oppressive behaviour is the worst kind of cultural relativism.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

According to this poll, 45 per cent of American Christians believe a wife should always obey her husband. So about the same percentage as Bosnian Muslims, but about half that of Egyptians, Indonesians, and Pakistanis.

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Very weak argument. Those exact quotes can be reversed and applied to a lot of men and how their wife has expectations of how they should look and wants to keep a tight reign on the purse. It's ridiculous to look at that hard data, counter that you would anecdotally imagine that the Christian numbers in the US and Canada would be similar to the lowest levels of the Islamic world and then try to imply that we have no basis to call a spade a spade because we have yet to drive every potential misogynist micro aggression from our society.

Did you read the poll above, now it's not the best source and certainly not as reputable as pew but 45% agree that a women should Obey her husband. Muslims living under secular governments show similar levels of misogyism as US Christians based on the Obey question.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by peter12

I find it funny how many of the liberal secularists will give any benefit of the doubt to the hypothetical personal experiences of Muslims but automatocally discount the everyday empiricism of Christians on this board.

Completely prejudiced.

Peter12 using big words to deflect instead of responding to posts, nothing new.


And if you want to toss the word prejudice around you might want to stop judging 2 billion people because you saw a few creepy Muslim men at the nude beach you go to.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Being selective about who you call out of oppressive behaviour is the worst kind of cultural relativism.

That's kind of my point, but there is a debate going in this thread about who is more misogynistic and a lot of pointing and saying "them, there, we have to criticise them."

I mean, you might very well be talking about name-callers and women beaters, but are you planning to change that with your western regressive liberal "no burkinis, Muslim! that's a representation of all your oppressive views!"

It's just so interesting to me the way people compartmentalise their politics. Restricting the right to criticise a culture? Regressive liberal. Restricting the right for members of a culture to dress a certain way? Noble liberal!

Just because their choice dress might born out of misogynistic ideology, doesn't give us the right to strip them down at the beach.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by GGG

Did you read the poll above, now it's not the best source and certainly not as reputable as pew but 45% agree that a women should Obey her husband. Muslims living under secular governments show similar levels of misogyism as US Christians based on the Obey question.

Personally, I'm not surprised. Some conservative evangelicals have remarkably backwards views on women, which is contrary to a great deal of the egalitarianism preached in the Gospels.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm not talking about the women wearing burkas. I'm talking about the men who uphold a ferociously misogynist culture that is straight out of the middle ages. Our grandfathers might have considered topless sunbathing indecent, but I doubt they would have assaulted the people doing it and called them whores while reciting phrases from the bible.

Let's call these men the brutal troglodytes they are. The fact that they're not white, and the fact some white men are also misogynistic troglodytes, is irrelevant. Being selective about who you call out of oppressive behaviour is the worst kind of cultural relativism.

The way out is through the education of women and the integration of women into modern society. So any law which marginalizes them like all anti religious garbs do causes harm.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That's kind of my point, but there is a debate going in this thread about who is more misogynistic and a lot of pointing and saying "them, there, we have to criticise them."

I mean, you might very well be talking about name-callers and women beaters, but are you planning to change that with your western regressive liberal "no burkinis, Muslim! that's a representation of all your oppressive views!"

It's just so interesting to me the way people compartmentalise their politics. Restricting the right to criticise a culture? Regressive liberal. Restricting the right for members of a culture to dress a certain way? Noble liberal!

Just because their choice dress might born out of misogynistic ideology, doesn't give us the right to strip them down at the beach.

No, but it shouldn't lead to special dispensations for affected populations either. There is a trend in Europe towards allowing special pool times for Muslim women etc...

They should be allowed to wear what they wish (obviously), but also feel the full effect of stigma and difference for their choices.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by GGG

The way out is through the education of women and the integration of women into modern society. So any law which marginalizes them like all anti religious garbs do causes harm.

People use the term education like some sort of Panglossian cure-all. Given that many members of these cultures are hostile to the starting premise of Western science and literature, I'm not sure how you make this actually work.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That's kind of my point, but there is a debate going in this thread about who is more misogynistic and a lot of pointing and saying "them, there, we have to criticise them."

One guy's 20 pounds overweight. The other's 200 pounds overweight. Treating them identically because they're both overweight makes zero sense.

I mean, you might very well be talking about name-callers and women beaters, but are you planning to change that with your western regressive liberal "no burkinis, Muslim! that's a representation of all your oppressive views!"

It's just so interesting to me the way people compartmentalise their politics. Restricting the right to criticise a culture? Regressive liberal. Restricting the right for members of a culture to dress a certain way? Noble liberal!

Just because their choice dress might born out of misogynistic ideology, doesn't give us the right to strip them down at the beach.

Please point to one person who has suggested that France is right or that members of any culture should have their right to dress a certain way restricted.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GGG

Did you read the poll above, now it's not the best source and certainly not as reputable as pew but 45% agree that a women should Obey her husband. Muslims living under secular governments show similar levels of misogyism as US Christians based on the Obey question.

It's pretty poor to look at 4000 response from a hardcore Christian survey and apply that to US Christians. 85% of Christians surveyed by that website also thought that we are living in the end of times...64% believe that the anti-Christ is alive today.

Regardless of what the numbers may be like in the US Christian demographic, that website is ####.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

One guy's 20 pounds overweight. The other's 200 pounds overweight. Treating them identically because they're both overweight makes zero sense.

True, which is why it's odd that we're delving into the beating and overarching misogynistic teachings regarding the subserviency of women in religious texts in a thread that started with "Hey, is it ok to ban religious garb?"

We started talking about the 20 pound dude, but people are making it about the 200 pound dude. Which is fine.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Please point to one person who has suggested that France is right or that members of any culture should have their right to dress a certain way restricted.

Uh, I was pointing to France. The place we're talking about. Duh (though maybe not duh since I did say "you").

Are you still mad because I made fun of your Z?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

No one makes fun of the Z. No one. Besides you probably drive a rusty old neon, you peasant!

... Anyway, funny, you were talking about France, a country, while responding to Cliff, and repeatedly saying "you are planning to change this", "people compartmentalise their politics", using the phrase "regressive liberal"... you can see how this sounds like you're complaining about views expressed by specific people. I'm pretty sure that everyone got on the "burkini ban is dumb" train on page 1... so I'm still not sure who you're arguing against. I guess no one?